Unfair Penalty Train Fare

musicmonkey1

My daughter has just started college, uses the train from Newhaven to Lewes and one morning when running late made the mistake of boarding the train without a ticket. (The ticket office was very busy that morning and the ticket machines were out of order).

During the week she had seen other students buying tickets on the train so assumed this would not be a problem. On this morning however it was standing room only so the inspector did not reach her carriage before she reached her destination. (The Journey is only 10 minutes).

She made it to Lewes without incident and went to the ticket office to buy her ticket which would include the return journey. She was directed to another officer at the station and promptly given a penalty fare! This hardly seems fair but an appeal to the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service has fallen on deaf ears.

A day or so later my daughter saw other students being 'done' like this and later that week the inspector on the train was 'mobbed' by students trying to buy a ticket before they reached Lewes (a 10 minute Journey). He agreed to phone the station to ensure the penalty fares were not levied.

The train company therefore are hardly being consistent in their approach and I believe my daughter has been harshly treated.

I am minded to let the train company take her to court as all of this was witnessed by friends of hers and can be verified, I cannot believe a court when hearing the circumstances would allow the penalty to stand.

However I have no experience in this area and the train rules do say do not board the train without a ticket. The fact that the train company will on a whim sell you a ticket and then on another whim give you a penalty fare seems to be irrelevant.

What do others think - any advice?

sooz

musicmonkey1 wrote: »

My daughter has just started college, uses the train from Newhaven to Lewes and one morning when running late made the mistake of boarding the train without a ticket. (The ticket office was very busy that morning and the ticket machines were out of order).

Tell her to get to the station earlier & buy a ticket. Or get a season ticket.

ClareEmily

I agree with Sooz.

It isn't fair that one rule seems to apply to some people and another for someone else.

Your daughter however got on a train without a ticket, so I would just advise her to pay the penality (was it only £20 BTW?) and get up earlier to buy a ticket.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/purchasing_tickets/penalty_fares.html

Voyager2002

No, the situation is not at all clear cut. Apart from anything else, inspectors on trains usually charge penalty fares, so this part of the rail network is clearly operating in a manner different from that envisaged in the national rail regulations.

Firstly, what guidance is provided at Newhaven station (where she began her journey)? Are there any signs that suggest that passengers in her situation are allowed to pay on the train? Did she ask anyone on duty there (if any of the station staff told her to get on the train then she had valid 'authority to travel').

Secondly, how long did she wait while attempting to buy her ticket? If her wait was at least ten minutes then she has a defence under the old passengers' charter (something that John Major introduced, and which has never been revoked).

I would suggest an appeal and/or contacting the rail regulator. However, I don't think that appearing in court as the accused would be the right occasion to present the kind of arguments that this case involves.

soolin

At my local station (which incidentally is nowhere as picturesque as either Lewes or Newhaven) there is a big notice by the staris that states that is illegal to board a train without a valid ticket and if caught a fine and penalties may be levied. There are similar notices at Liverpool Street..is there nothing like that out in the country?

Altarf

musicmonkey1 wrote: »

My daughter has just started college, uses the train from Newhaven to Lewes and one morning when running late made the mistake of boarding the train without a ticket. (The ticket office was very busy that morning and the ticket machines were out of order).

During the week she had seen other students buying tickets on the train so assumed this would not be a problem.

The problem is the assumption she made. Some of the stations on the line from Seaford to Lewes are Penalty Fare stations and some are not. So for example Penalty Fares apply if you get on at Seaford or Newhaven Town, but not if you get on at Bishopstone, Newhaven Harbour or Southease.

So it is perfectly possible for some people to be allowed to board without a ticket and pay on the train or the destination, but if others who boarded at a different station would be liable to a Penalty Fare if they did the same.

musicmonkey1

Just to clarify, my daughter had left in plenty of time but her connecting bus was late ( not the rail company's problem I know) The train was pulling into the station as she arrived so she clearly wasn't going to have time to queue. (There were several people waiting) The ticket machines on the platform were all out of order.

Newhaven is not always manned and the signs at the station state that tickets must be purchased at the first available opportunity. There is no 'black and white' 'do not board without a ticket' message or sign.

What annoys me most of all is she went to the counter at her destination to buy a ticket but was sent to someone else purely so the train company could levy the fine. It is possible to leave Lewes station without showing a ticket but she chose to be honest and was rewarded with a £20 penalty for a £3.60 fare.

I have always taught my daughter to be honest - this is not the kind of experience that supports the messages I've been trying to teach her.

This just doesn't feel like fair play or natural justice - but then we are talking about the rail company so why should it I guess?

Altarf

musicmonkey1 wrote: »

Newhaven is not always manned and the signs at the station state that tickets must be purchased at the first available opportunity. There is no 'black and white' 'do not board without a ticket' message or sign.

Are you talking about Newhaven Town or Newhaven Harbour station? It makes a difference.

musicmonkey1

Newhaven Town

spiro

On the point "Newhaven is not always manned and the signs at the station state that tickets must be purchased at the first available opportunity. There is no 'black and white' 'do not board without a ticket' message or sign.
" I would send off the payment but with a covering letter explaining the situation including the fact that the tickter machines were not working and that in accordance with the sign (ideally include a photo of the sign) your daughter tried to buy a ticket at the first available opportunity but that the staff refused to seel her a ticket which resulted in the penalty being issued. I thought that unless there is a clear sign at the entrance to the platform stating that boarding a train without a ticket would result in the full single fare plus a penalty being applied they could'nt apply this policy. It would be like getting a parking ticket when there is no warning sign.

Voyager2002

spiro wrote: »

On the point "Newhaven is not always manned and the signs at the station state that tickets must be purchased at the first available opportunity. There is no 'black and white' 'do not board without a ticket' message or sign.
" I would send off the payment but with a covering letter explaining the situation including the fact that the tickter machines were not working and that in accordance with the sign (ideally include a photo of the sign) your daughter tried to buy a ticket at the first available opportunity but that the staff refused to seel her a ticket which resulted in the penalty being issued. I thought that unless there is a clear sign at the entrance to the platform stating that boarding a train without a ticket would result in the full single fare plus a penalty being applied they could'nt apply this policy. It would be like getting a parking ticket when there is no warning sign.

A sensible approach, except that once you have paid a penalty it is unlikely to be returned. I would suggest sending an appeal letter along these lines, with a copy to the address for payment stating that the charge is in dispute and that payment will be made once the dispute is settled.

For advice that is better informed than anything I can provide, try the discussion group uk.railway. To find it, go to the Google home page (or to the web address https://www.deja.com); type uk.railway into the search box; and select the option "groups".