just about to complete puchase......no planning or building regs for attic conversion

romeobrass

hello all.

my girlfriend and i are first time buyers and were all set to sign for a house, (completion date aranged to be monday the 19th dec, although we're not in a rush to complete) when a meeting with the solisitor uncovered that the vender dosen't have planning permision or building regulations for the attic conversion and dormer window.

this obviously caused me to panic as a fisrt-time buyer.

however the solicitor seemed quite relaxed about it saying the present owner was going to get an indemnity policy out so that if a problem occured it would cover all costs for any work done or drop in value to the property.

the esstate agent also told us it is a common proceedure.

the solicetor mentioned that if we were to highlight this lack of planning/building regulation certificate in any way while we live there that the indemnity polciy would be void.



i still feel unsure about this. my conserns are:

1)while liveing there we won't ever be able to ligitimise the attic conversion with planning/building regs as it will void the indemnity policy, therefore making it hard to sell on as repeating this same situation.

2)if we were to add a skylight to the attic conversion we wouldn't beable to notify planning/ building regs because it would bring up the lack of orignal planning etc.

3)i asked the estate agent if the vender would get everything above board so that any work to be done to bring it up to scatch would be highlighted and then possibly taken off the house price (we put in our offer assuming that planning etc was in place). the vender refused and wants to sell with just the indemnity policy in place otherwise will put back on market. she has given us till monday to tell her what we want to do.
the combined pressure of the vender, the eagerness to complete from the esstate agent and the blas'e solisetor has made me feel we're being pushed in to a risky position. am i being over pariniod or do i have reason to be so conserned?
what would other house buyers do in this situation?
anyone been through a similar problem?

oh one last thing about indemnity policys...
why couldn't someone (or could they?) build a sub-standard extension, take out an indemnity policy, get a friend to report them and then have the policy company pay for work to be done to bring the extension up to scratch?

any reponse/advise would be appricated greatly as we dont want to lose the place, but don't want to move in somewhere without peace of mind.
sorry for the bad spelling and rambleing....it's late.......i'm worried.

tom

p.s. will check site regulary, so can provide extra info.

sammyy

Why don't you ring the council planning dept. and see what you have to say.You don't have to give them any info,just ask what their procedure would be.It looks like you maybe storing up trouble for the future though.

AndrewSmith

Hi,

If you are due to complete on 19th, does this mean you have already exchanged contracts? If so it is too late to do anything as you are legally committed to the purchase.

Andy

Bossyboots

Assuming you haven't exchanged, my own view would be to have things put on hold while the vendor applies for retrospective planning permission.

You have put the other choice to them, they they reduce the house price sufficiently to allow you to.

You are correct to worry about the points you have raised. It is not reasonable to offer you an indemnity that does not allow you to do anything with the attic or regularise its construction. I have never heard of that and it seems to me that there is something not quite right.

What is worrying me, is whether the vendor knows it would not have been allowed if permission had been sought. You have no proof of how long it has been up. There is the risk that at some stage the council could ask you take it down and restore the roof space and roof to its original condition. I know that is extreme, but just up the road from me someone has had to demolish a two storey side extension they didn't get permission to build and it was denied on a retrospective application.

Also, if you are not allowed to highlight the lack of permission while you are living there then presumably when you come to sell and your vendor becomes aware of the situation, you will then have voided the indemnity. This means you will end up putting things right at that stage or you will have to provide an indemnity yourself.

If the indemnity comes free of encumbrances then you would be fine, but I am very worried about that highlight clause.

lush_walrus

I agree with Bossyboots, Personally I wouldn't let the threats of pulling out etc scare you, ultimately if the vendors do do that then they will still be in the position again with a new buyer. The planning enforcemement officers can request for the roof to be re-instated, which is what the insurance policy is covering you for. But on the condition that you do not alert the planners to the position. It is all hassle that is not frankly worth it if you ask me. It does depend on the area as to what type of action the planners would take if you were to be found without permission, it may well be that they will let a retrospect application go through, but do you really want the worry of that on you. Ultimately, the vendors should have applied for permission and carried out the work properly, generally a person who doesnt apply for permission is exactly the type of person to have cut corners in the construction.

If you really do want to proceed though, I would definately try to have a look along the road and see if there are any precidents for loft conversions. If every second house has a recent loft conversion, then chances are the planners will allow the application through. If yours is the only one, then probably loft conversions are not being encouraged in the area.

Personally, I would say if you arent in a rush pull out and find somewhere else. Its all more hassle than its worth and the vendors lack of proceedure is going to fall on you one way or the other.

littlereddevil

Don' touch it

nej

How long ago was it done? We had a similar situation when we bought our house; the loft had been converted about 20 years ago (by the people who owned it before the people we bought it off).

The solicitor said that over 10 years and it doesn't really matter anymore, but recommended we purchased the indemnity insurance. We discussed it with the sellers and we agreed to split the cost 50/50. I can't remember how much it was, about £50 each IIRC.

Bossyboots

nej wrote:

How long ago was it done? We had a similar situation when we bought our house; the loft had been converted about 20 years ago (by the people who owned it before the people we bought it off).

The solicitor said that over 10 years and it doesn't really matter anymore, but recommended we purchased the indemnity insurance. We discussed it with the sellers and we agreed to split the cost 50/50. I can't remember how much it was, about £50 each IIRC.

I did think about the time limit but wondered whether there is actually any proof that would be acceptable to the council of when the conversion was done.

Also, like lush walrus I would be concerned about whether it has been done properly.

BobProperty

No planning permission if it is needed - don't touch it until they get planning permission.
No building regs - What was it described as by the estate agent? They are very good at saying "loft room" instead of "bedroom" under these circumstances. Reckon on at least £7k-8k going on £15k-£25 to do it properly (assuming it is an average sort of property and size). Have a search back through this forum as I'm sure it was discussed here recently. What would the house be worth without the loft conversion?

romeobrass

Hi people again.
thanks all for your responses, mucho appriciated, starting to get my head round the sisuation/ where we stand.

no we havn't exchanged contracts yet.

was starting to think we will persist with seller, getting a builder in to give us an esstimate of how much it will cost to get to building regs standard and change our offer accordingly. my boss at work (more of a risk taker than myself) said he would see this as a tool to get the price down, wouldn't even bother with a building esstimate and just knock £2500 off offer. This would also take us below stamp duty threshhold saving us an extra £1200 (offer at the moment being 122,000).

to respond to lush walrus comments. yes pretty much all the house on terris have the same kind of loft conversion, but again like you say the type of person who hasn't bothered about planning permission is likly to have cut corners during construction. the seller has been quite vague about other work done to house, dates and details of what has been done, etc.

proof wise of when the loft was converted, they say 1994 but no paperwork to prove that. again seems a little bit slack.

thanks again for taking the time to give advise, any further comments, esspecially about lowering our offer a bit would be appriciated.

[Deleted User]

Well, I am actually surprised to hear you offered 122K and not 119,950 in the first place in order to avoid stamp duty. How much was it selling for if you don't mind me asking? If it were me, I'd call the council and say that you are considering buying a house in the area (be vague) and that it appears that the loft conversion was done in 1994 but there is no paperwork to prove it and see what they say.

If you intend to be in the house for several years, then you could just get the indemnity insuranceand wait 10 years. In the meantime, I'd get a structural engineer to assess the conversion and put your mind at rest in terms of safety and make your vendor pay the fee.

Good luck!