Urgent Help Needed

Queen

Hi had another appt with CCCS who gave completely different advice with regards to if the property would be repossessed in the future they advised today that this would be included in BR as the mortgage was taken out prior to BR as long as we don't remortgage, the lady yesterday said that this would not be, only grey area is the money we gave to sister in 2005 they may chase her for this but we have no other option if we want to keep the house that BR is only option and hope that they do not chase her for this
so booke appt for 5th November cann't see us before then

Merry_Gentry

Hi Queen, I really think getting some alternative advice from a different area would really help you. As the others have explained, if your sister doesn't have the money she can't pay it back - simple as that. So you can tick that off your list of worries. Please, set your mind at ease by getting some more advice.

Queen

Hi thanks for your comments, I have had a lot of advice it seems the first lady at CCCS told me incorrectly but 2nd g'man double checked his info and this was confirmed with OR's office so I'm going with the advice given today although grey area with money given to sis even the OR's office could not confirm how they would do this, in the past had advice from payplan and NDL who both confirmed best option was BR but the problem with money to sis only came to light yesterday when going through forms on phone with CCCS about property etc sold within the last 5 yrs

Queen

Hi all, given really bad advice by CCCS it sees that the first lady I had my appt with at CCCS was correct that if we go BR and buy the BI in the propertym then some in the fure if were reposessed pr sell the property at a lower value with a shortfall this can not be included in the BR and we would need to go BR again which is frowned upon I am told as this would be seen as reckless getting the right advie is a mine field thank goodness for the helpful information from you guys, I think we will try and see it through to see how long we can keep property for unless anybody as any other advise

dodecanese

Hi Queen

Another option is- if you go bankrupt and have neg equity/no equity- just dont buy the BI staight away. The OR has 3 years to decide what to do with it. Looking at the way the housing market is, its doubtful it will recover in that time, and you can always buy the BI at some point if you know you'll be ok. Then, a year or so down the line- if you find you are struggling and end up losing your house the shortfall will go into the bankruptcy.

There was a thread on here not long back about someone who had bought the BI and was now looking at handing keys back- they were told by the OR that any shortfall WOULD still go into the bankruptcy- Im rather hazy on this though.

As far as I understand it, if you dont buy the BI you should be ok shortfall wise, if you do buy the BI...it seems a bit uncertain

Queen

Thanks, thought you had to buy the BI straight away, so we could decide further down the line to buy the BI if we wanted say if the property prices started to go up we could protect this again the OR with buying the BI and if we didn't and prices and mortgage rates got worse this would then be included in the BR as that correct

blind-as-a-bat_2

I would have a chat with Richard_S, he may contradict that advice, as i know he has been looking into just that scenario, regarding buying the BI back and then being liable for short fall if it falls through after BR.

He is sure you wont be but i havnt had time to find out/talk to him in length as to how he is so sure.

But it does make sense as when you buy back your BI you only buy back your right to any future equity, not liabilaty, that still remains a liabilaty before BR

You will find getting the right advice can be hard, mainly because the IS dont even know there own legaslation/guidelines sometimes, and give the wrong advice out on there help lines, if the IS cant get it right, what chance do others have?:rolleyes:

edit- i have emailed Rich to ask him to have a look at this thread, but i know he is working odd hours at the moment, so it may take a while for him to respond

Queen

Thanks, did speak with OR's office who advised that if we were to buy BI then this would definately not be included if the property was either sold or reposessed at a later date what a mine field will send a pm to Richard to see f he an clarify this

blind-as-a-bat_2

Just remembered Rich posted this ages ago on another Board, apparently it explains why you wont be liable,

assuming nothing has been changed since this was posted,

Posted Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:12 am

In summary, what the regulations mean is that if you sell a property after being declared bankrupt then any shortfall is included in your bankruptcy. There was some confusion as to whether you had to declare bankruptcy after the shortfall was realised for it to be included.

Regards

Richie



380. Introductory
The next five sections have effect for the interpretation of the provisions of this Act which are comprised in this Group pf Parts; and where a definition is provided for a particular expression, it applies except so far as the context otherwise requires.
381. "Bankrupt" and associated terminology
(1) "Bankrupt" means an individual who has been adjudged bankrupt and, in relation to a bankruptcy order, it means the individual adjudged by that order.
(2) "Bankruptcy order" means an order adjudging an individual bankrupt.
(3) "Bankruptcy petition" means a petition to the court for a bankruptcy order.
382. "Bankruptcy debt", etc
(1) "Bankruptcy debt", in relation to a bankrupt, means (subject to the next subsection) any of the following -
(a) any debt or liability to which he is subject at the commencement of the bankruptcy.
(b) any debt or liability to which he may become subject after the commencement of the bankruptcy (including after his discharge from bankruptcy) by reason of any obligation incurred before the commence- ment of the bankruptcy,
(c) any amount specified in pursuance of section 39(3)(c) of the Powers of Criminal Courts Act 1973 in any criminal bankruptcy order made against him before the commencement of the bankruptcy, and
(d) any interest provable as mentioned in section 322(2) in Chapter IV of Part IX.
(2) In determining for the purpose of any provision in this Group of Parts whether any liability in tort is a bankruptcy debt, the bankrupt is deemed to because subject to that liability by reason of an obligation incurred at the time when the cause of action accrued.
(3) For the purposes of references in this Group of Parts to a debt or liability, it is immaterial whether the debt or liability is present or future , whether it is certain or contingent or whether the amount is fixed or liquidated, or is capable of being ascertained by fixed rules or as a matter of opinion; and references in this Group of Parts to owing a debt are to be read accordingly.
(4) In this Group of Parts, except in so far as the context otherwise requires, "liability" means (subject to subsection (3) above) a liability to pay money or money's worth, including any liability under an enactment, any liability for breach of trust, any liability in contract, tort or bailment and any liability arising out of an obligation to make restitution.
383. "Creditor" "security", etc
(1) "Creditor" -
(a) in relation to a bankrupt, means a person to whom any of the bankruptcy debts is owed (being, in the case of an amount falling within paragraph of the definition in section 382(1) of "bankruptcy debt", the person in respect of whom that amount is specified in the criminal bankruptcy order in question), and
(b) in relation to an individual to whom a bankruptcy petition relates, means a person who would be a creditor in the bankruptcy if a bankruptcy order were made on that petition.
(2) Subject to the next subsections and any provision of the rules requiring a creditor to give up his security for the purposes of proving a debt, a debt is secured for the purposes of this Group of Parts to the extent that the person to whom the debt is owed holds any security for the debt (whether a mortgage, charge, lien or other security) over any property of the person by whom the debt is owed.
(3) Where a statement such as is mentioned in section 269(1)(a) in Chapter I of Part IX has been made by a secured creditor for the purposes of any bankruptcy petition and a bankruptcy order is subsequently made on that petition, the creditor is deemed for the purposes of the Parts in this Group to have given up the security specified in the statement.
(4) In subsection (2) the reference to a security does not include a lien on books, papers or other records, except to the extent that they consist of documents which give a title to property and are held as such.
384. "Prescribes" and "the rules"
(1) Subject to the next subsection "prescribed" means prescribed by the rules; and "the rules" means rules made under section 412 in Part XV.
(2) References in this Group of parts to the amount prescribed for the purposes of any of the following provisions -
section 273;
section 346(3);
section 354(1) and (2);
section 358;
section 360(1);
section 361 (2); and
section 364(2)(d),
and references in those provisions to the prescribed amount are to be read in accordance with section 418 in Part XV and orders made under that section.
385. Miscellaneous definitions
(1) The following definitions have effect -
"the court", in relation to any matter, means the court to which, in accordance with section 373 in Part X and the rules, proceedings with respect to that matter are allocated or transferred;
"creditors petition" means a bankruptcy petition under section 264 (1)(a);
"criminal bankruptcy order" means an order under section 39(1) of the Powers of Criminal Courts Act 1973;
"debt" is to be constructed in accordance with section 382(3);
"the debtor" -
(a) in relation to a proposal for the purposes of Part VIII, means the individual making or intending to make that proposal, and
(b) in relation to a bankruptcy petition, means the individual to whom the petition relates;
"debtor's petition" means a bankruptcy petition presented by the debtor himself under section 264(1)(b);
"dwelling house" includes any building or part of a building which is occupied as a dwelling and any yard, garden, garage or outhouse belonging to the dwelling house and occupied with it;
"estate", in relation to a bankrupt is to be constructed in accordance with section 283 in Chapter II of Part IX;
"family", in relation to a bankrupt, means the persons (if any) who are living with him and are dependent on him;
"secured" and related expressions are to be constructed in accordance with section 383; and
"the trustee", in relation to a bankruptcy and the bankrupt, means the trustee of the bankrupt's estate.
(2) References in this Group of Parts to a person's affairs include his business, if any.

but it shows why no one can give you a right answer doesnt it :rotfl:

Queen

Thank you I have sent a PM to Richard to see if can help me make my mind of what to do but thanksfor you kind help:T