Breaking News: Ing

baby_boomer

FT

"...While ING’s capital was not as stretched as Fortis, the group acknowledged it would have to follow an international trend of bolstering its capital.

However, Wouter Bos, Dutch finance minister, dismissed any comparison of the deal to the bail-out and nationalisation of Fortis. “Fortis-ABN Amro was a bank about to fall,” he said. “This is a healthy company. We just wanted to give it extra buffers to withstand market forces.”

It will be interesting to see what the markets make of it on Monday. On Tuesday there is an unwinding of Lehman's Credit Default Options. Someone may go under as a result - or it may all pass off OK and the world will worry less about this great unknown problem.

harry_w

Yes, the site is back up now. That was an unfortunate interruption.

The transfer I requested at 9:15pm yesterday was registered, so that should process today and arrive in my current account in 2-3 working days.

I do not think any ING customers have any reason to panic and should make their decisions based on their interests as a bank customer, not based on fear of the worst happening.

I think the 'worst' that could happen is ING have to sell savings accounts to a cash-rich, better capitalised institution...no savings will disappear in even if ING does run in to trouble.

If ING offered the same competitive interest rate for *all* customers (without bonus), and not a reduced one to existing balances of old customers, I would still consider banking with them. As it is, old customers don't get the bonus rate, and Icelandic Kaupthing Edge account holders still get a higher rate.

I don't think ING are under immediate threat - probably the opposite, and their survival is actually assured given the investment (capital injection) from the Dutch government.

Recent ING news:
http://news.google.co.uk/news?q=ING&ie=UTF-8&scoring=n

Recent ING news from the Netherlands:
http://news.google.co.uk/news?as_q=ING&svnum=10&as_nloc=Netherlands

Their Chief Financial Officer, John Hele, has been on CNBC this morning, and is on Bloomberg now. Senior ING executive officers are due to give a media conference call later this morning on recent developments (including selling off a life insurance subsidiary in Taiwan).

baby_boomer

harry_w wrote: »

...The transfer I requested at 9:15pm yesterday was registered, so that should process today.....I do not think any [other] ING customers have any reason to panic

I agree. It's just an odd juxtaposition .

harry_w

lol. You should see the state of the bank whose current account I've moved it to [pending a better place to put it].

As I said, I don't think ING will be in trouble, but they won't give me the same deal as new customers or Icelandic account refugees. And all their advertising taunts me with the fact. I joined ING because I didn't want fun and games chasing special offers.

I'd forgotten the Lehman settlement tomorrow, I don't think it was generally thought likely to lead to [any serious, 'systemic'] defaults. ING did sell off a life insurance business in Taiwan this week, raising c. €500m (2/3 cash, 1/3 shares in new partner), maybe raising cash and capital, dropping liabilities?

The ING CEO gave a fairly detailed presentation on the Group the week before last, available on ING Group's site:

John Hele at the Merrill Lynch Banking & Insurance Conference in London on 9 October 2008
http://www.ing.com/group/showdoc.jsp?docid=346459_EN&menopt=prm|pre|apr|008

Interesting, but a bit too technical for me.

I believe the background for ING raising capital are explained here, as concern for insurers liabilities:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c75e82fe-949e-11dd-953e-000077b07658.html

The issue became more acute after a Goldman Sachs research note late last week:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c75e82fe-949e-11dd-953e-000077b07658.html

Market Scan
Pressure Mounts On ING
Vidya Ram , 10.17.08, 12:26 PM ET
LONDON - ... European banks, especially those with large securities divisions, have been lapping up government and private funding to beef up their capital positions. The rest are hurting from speculation that they will soon have to follow suit.

Dutch insurer-bank ING Group (nyse: ING - news - people ) has become the latest focal point, plummeting on word that it would have to raise more capital. Its shares were down 18.1%, or 1.83 euros ($2.46), at 8.29 euros ($11.16), during mid-afternoon trading Friday in Amsterdam after falling over 20.0% in the morning.

There was no immediate trigger for the latest spurt of rumors, said analysts, but rather a stream of negative news that has built up in recent days. This included a downbeat outlook for the bank by analysts at Goldman Sachs. The analysts stress-tested the assets of insurers and found that it was Dutch and large British insurers whose capital positions came under the most strain; the report singled out ING as a focal point of concern. "ING screens poorly as a result of the adjustments we have made to its calculated excess capital: We have assumed the bank needs to run on a core Tier 1 ratio of 6.0% as opposed to the company's target of 5.4%," said analysts Johnny Vo and Will Morgan in a note to investors.

ING's core tier 1 ratio, which measures the capital it holds, is also low relative to other European banks which have been tapping governments and shareholders. "Its capital position is quite OK but is at the lower end of European ratios," says WestLB analyst Andreas Schaefer...

ING Drops on Speculation Firm Needs to Raise Capital (Update2)
By Martijn van der Starre

Oct. 17 (Bloomberg) -- ING Groep NV, the biggest Dutch financial-services firm, posted a record drop in Amsterdam trading on speculation the bank and insurer may need to raise capital.

`Additional Capital'
Goldman Sachs Group Inc. analysts said in a note to clients dated Oct. 15 that big insurers in the U.K. and the Netherlands, including ING, are more likely to need additional capital than their peers in Europe, which generally are better positioned than banks to endure financial stress.
``ING screens poorly as a result of the adjustments we have made to its calculated excess capital,'' London-based Goldman Sachs analysts Will Morgan and Johnny Vo wrote. ``We have assumed the bank needs to run on a core Tier 1 ratio of 6 percent, as opposed to the company's target of 5.4 percent.''
The core Tier I capital ratio is an indicator of a financial institution's ability to absorb losses.

`Low-Range'
The 8.2 percent Tier I ratio of ING's banking business looks ``low-range'' compared with figures of as high as 13 percent elsewhere, London-based Standard & Poor's analyst Tony Silverman wrote in a note today. Lifting ING's ratio to 12 percent would require an injection of 12.2 billion euros, said Silverman, who rates the company's stock a ``buy.''

Inactive

harry_w wrote: »

As I said, I don't think ING will be in trouble, but they won't give me the same deal as new customers or Icelandic account refugees. And all their advertising taunts me with the fact. I joined ING because I didn't want fun and games chasing special offers.

Same here, and ever since they have paid lousy rates to existing customers.

I only have a small amount left in ING now, I will be closing it down later today.

I don't like their dishonesty. ( see post above ).

baby_boomer

The market is relieved.

Yahoo link - ING shares up over 20% at 8.51 a.m.

The wider markets are also up 1%+

That should calm a few nerves on here.

Yahoo link - Banks lead European stocks higher

Storm in a tea-cup, anyone?

angiek

Quote from Harry_W

'I do not think any ING customers have any reason to panic and should make their decisions based on their interests as a bank customer, not based on fear of the worst happening.'


...All very well Harry W but if, like me, you have very little income, what was your backup instant access savings (for Gas/Electric, Council Tax, Water, car bills etc etc etc) now tied up awaiting reclaim from Icesave, AND are now apparently in a huge queue to transfer out of Kaupthing FTD account then it is extremely difficult not to panic!
Forward planning for those on a limited budget must include 'fear of the worst happening' ?
Angie K

(ever so slightly panicking!)

Paul_Herring

oldmanof_the_sea wrote: »

Why is anyone looking at which Bank is strong and which one is at risk.

Because it sells newspapers/eyeballs on websites.

poppy10_2

baby_boomer wrote: »

The market is relieved.

Yahoo link - ING shares up over 20% at 8.51 a.m.
Yahoo link - Banks lead European stocks higher

Storm in a tea-cup, anyone?

Hands, up, I called it wrong. I thought banking shares, and ING in particular, would tank today.

gimp101

angiek wrote: »

Quote from Harry_W

'I do not think any ING customers have any reason to panic and should make their decisions based on their interests as a bank customer, not based on fear of the worst happening.'


...All very well Harry W but if, like me, you have very little income, what was your backup instant access savings (for Gas/Electric, Council Tax, Water, car bills etc etc etc) now tied up awaiting reclaim from Icesave, AND are now apparently in a huge queue to transfer out of Kaupthing FTD account then it is extremely difficult not to panic!
Forward planning for those on a limited budget must include 'fear of the worst happening' ?
Angie K

(ever so slightly panicking!)

I'm in almost exactly the same situation Angie K, I've had the knotted stomach feeling almost constantly now for 2 weeks.