Lapland New Forest Scam. How to get money back...

EdnaCloud

whitewing wrote: »

Lapland UK's comments (yes, I don't mind giving them some free publicity):

http://www.creditman.biz/uk/members/news-view.asp?newsviewID=9590

**snip**

There's nothing wrong with plugging a reputable company, particularly as they have been besmirched by a rather disgraceful ex-con.

I have requested a good friend of mine in the legal profession to impartially advise that Lapland UK register their issues with the liquidators, it will not affect the outcome of the liquidation but as whitewing has suggested it may be used as circumstantial evidence, if not actual evidence, in any investigation of the director's conduct in this matter.

As far as claiming refunds are concerned that should continue as per previous advice.
PLEASE DO NOT GIVE UP

Meanwhile, we will continue to collect and publicise here any information regarding the conduct of the director of LAPLAND NEW FOREST LTD (In liquidation) and to provide a resource of information for further investigation by the appointed liquidator, Dorset Trading Standards (come on you lot, get a move on!) and any other party who has a valid reason in law to be investigating this director. Ooops,
forgot HMRC - if there are any officers of the Crown acting for HMRC out there reading this thread we hope it may assist.

Edna

EdnaCloud

yorksrabbit wrote: »

Hello whitewing: very interesting!

Hello yorksrabbit,

I would guess the Lapland UK solicitors have told their client that there is no point in suing for copyright breach

From my 'external' view I think you are highly likely to be right there. There's not going to be money to be had from a civil action, (unless I'm from Mars) and the cost of action would probably be quite high.

but have decided to add more weight to Mr Mear's burden, the more the charges of wrongdoing and "cynicism" add up, the harder it is for Mears to shrug them off.

That's an interesting comment, how do you envisage they (Lapland UK) will add to the 'burden' as you put it? I know we have done our little bit here, have you got some cunning ploy to increase that burden further? If so please tell, we really want to let the director of Lapland New Forest Ltd (in liquidation) just how despicable and diabolical we consider his actions and conduct.

This may be only one case but if we can show all organisations concerned that there *is* a voice and the we *will* be heard we might, just might, reduce the number of these scams occurring. Sorry if this has drifted a bit off topic but we need to start to make a noise. Years of failed legislation, lackadaisical attitudes from those in office, and huge inertia in many of the over administrated departments has meant little or nothing has changed for years. Same scams, same frauds, same disgraceful characters laughing in our faces. Time is nigh for a new look.

EdnaCloud

whitewing wrote: »

Santa's Kingdom 2002-ish

Does anyone know how to work out if there is any kind of a link between either of the Lapland New Forest and West Midlands ventures,
**snip**

I can't comment on the 2002 episode, but it was stated that the organiser of the West Midlands 2008 affair 'got the idea from his brother in Bournemouth who saw LNF, or words to that effect. This is not a precise quote, I will try and find the post that carried this - In fact it may have been yours whitewing, you have posted so many useful links here!

At least the WM affair did not actually open, and it was highly amusing that the web site (like LNF) had the same entries on the 'sales areas' stating 'nearly sold out', close to selling out' almost full' etc etc., and then in a statement regarding the closure poor ticket sales were blamed. Hmmmm - that's lying isn't it?

Edna

whitewing

It's the 'ice slide' (and the 200000 tickets reportedly sold in 2002) that is making me think that Lapland New Forest may have been 'inspired' by Santa's Kingdom, even if no actual link can be determined between the organisers of each.

The 'ice slide' is mentioned here for Lapland NF (and I believe was part of the planning application, although I also believe from an early Dec media report that it never actually turned up on site)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/scammed-by-santa-attraction-closes-six-days-after-it-opened-1055550.html

The ice slide was also part of misleading advertising for Santa's Kingdom (see my post 1375). Misleading in that it was advertised as a snow slide.

Although a lot of the key 'Christmas' features of Lapland NF such as reindeer, gingerbread etc are also on Lapland UK's website, I can't find any mention of 'ice slides' there, although of course I don't know what they (UK) had in 2007.

Can't see anything about polar bears on Lapland UK either, but there is mention of a photograph of a polar bear that was submitted to the ASA for Santa's Kingdom. I would love to see if it's the same distinctive polar bear that graced the New Forest. (You wuldn't go out of your way to buy a polar bear like that, would you? You'd use one you or a mate had knocking around. I want to know where the bear came from now...)

Why do a Christmas scam unless (someone's) past experience shows that you can rake money in quickly and then get away with it because few people will persist with their complaints after the New Year. And there will always be those who tell consumers that they deserve to lose their money for being extravagant or stupid and ignoring the 'true meaning of Christmas'.

I think the money-making part came first (echoes of excessive queues and insufficient toilet facilities from Santa's Kingdom) and then the alleged 'copycatting' of Lapland UK for that extra authenticity.

It will be interesting to see if anyone gets any kind of comeuppance over Lapland New Forest. At the moment, I think I have learned enough to have a go myself in a year or two, and so far there isn't too much to put me off....

I would like to make it clear that this post is simply post-midnight waffle from me (a non-expert), surmised from various online reports and should not be taken as fact. (Gut reaction).

EdnaCloud

whitewing wrote: »

It's the 'ice slide' (and the 200000 tickets reportedly sold in 2002) that is making me think that Lapland New Forest may have been 'inspired' by Santa's Kingdom, even if no actual link can be determined between the organisers of each. **snip**

There may be no 'direct' connection but your attention to detail here is commendable, and connection of sorts there may well be, see below.

The ice slide was also part of misleading advertising for Santa's Kingdom (see my post 1375). Misleading in that it was advertised as a snow slide.

Chuckle - 'misleading' in any reference to these scams is a gross understatement.

**snip**. I would love to see if it's the same distinctive polar bear that graced the New Forest. (You wouldn't go out of your way to buy a polar bear like that, would you? You'd use one you or a mate had knocking around. I want to know where the bear came from now...)

Deep laugh - but you are leaning on an open door there - remember my fat white cat was lined up for several appearances as a polar bear cub. Alas all his seasonal work has now been dashed........

Why do a Christmas scam unless (someone's) past experience shows that you can rake money in quickly and then get away with it because few people will persist with their complaints after the New Year.

Whether the connection between these 'companies' is purely plagiaristic, or word of mouth through the more dubious part of our society we will not know but there does seem to be a common 'rip off' theme. Let us keep our eyes peeled for the next one.

And there will always be those who tell consumers that they deserve to lose their money for being extravagant or stupid and ignoring the 'true meaning of Christmas'.

Those people annoy me greatly with their 'holier than thou' unctious smugness. It matters not a jot how someone chooses to celebrate an occasion - it is their own business, and theirs only. This self satisfied religious fervour hardly befits a good Christian anyway does it? And why is it these self righteous people only now come out of the woodwork and castigate the many? If they knew this before why did 'they' not warn us? It is very easy to be smug with the benefit of hindsight. I believe 'they' are just relieved that 'they' avoided this scam, and probably by luck rather than design.
Further, people who have lost money in this scam cannot be generalised as stupid. That is most offensive. Any person making that accusation would do well to think before opening mouth (or touching keyboard). If they are confident they are aware of every scam and every 'bad' deal in the whole world and will *never* fall prey to them, then they may speak out. In my opinion it would be a falsely brave and stupid person who does this, however.
In parting, I would also add that regardless *whatsoever* of stupidity, extravagance, or meaning of Christmas, this event, Lapland New Forest, broke the law in numerous ways, not least of which is the totally misleading advertising which, of course, was the basis for many bookings.


If anyone feels embarrassed by the ridiculous comments made by these silly people (mostly on the tabloid comments sites, I note) do not hesitate to come forward. You have been wronged. How that came about for you personally is none of our business. How it came about in general and what can be done is our business and it is not too late to take action. Ask questions here, make your 'chargeback' claim and register as a creditor. Please do not shrink from this for fear of looking silly. You are *not* and you will find only support here.

It will be interesting to see if anyone gets any kind of comeuppance over Lapland New Forest.

Sadly I fear they will not, but I will be rejoicing if they do.

At the moment, I think I have learned enough to have a go myself in a year or two, and so far there isn't too much to put me off....

Easy there now, I wuldn't want you nicking my idea of a Eester Eggstrvaganza 'ere in the fens. And y'know the ole cats-wiff-anklers is my copy rite don't you, me booty? Anyway since them cats never brought no oncers in over Xmas them'll 'ave to be Eester Bunnys now. Got sum cheep cotten wull and sum wiltin' celery from fridge for ears and sooper glooing it all on now.

I would like to make it clear that this post is simply post-midnight waffle from me (a non-expert), surmised from various online reports and should not be taken as fact. (Gut reaction).

Likewise,
rgds, Edna
(No cats were harmed in the making of this posting)

whitewing

Hi Edna,

Thank goodness you posted. I thought I'd killed the thread.

I hadn't noticed this before:

Maz72, Southampton says...
6:31pm Fri 5 Dec 08
We've had a really rubbish year with my son being diagnosed with leukaemia in March and I thought this would be such a fantastic day for him and his sister. It just tops it all for us for 2008. I paid by cheque as on the day I called to book the lady told me they were having problems with their credit card machine and could I possibly send a cheque. I should of trusted my instincts then as the address she gave me to send it to was a PO Box number. I spent two weeks wondering if we would receive the tickets, which we eventually did for all the good it has done!!!

which is a comment from here:

http://www.thisishampshire.net/news/hampshirenews/3953761._Santa_s_dead__visitors_told_as_Lapland_New_Forest_shuts_down/

It does make you wonder about the cheques. Were people encouraged to send cheques rather than pay by card? Did we ever find out who cheques were being made payable to? If the tickets were sent two weeks later, then they probably waited for cheques to clear so there must have been some paperwork there. Wonder if cheque payers got Grant Thornton letters?

whitewing

Has this any relevance to anything (assuming it is true)?

from mumsnet 18th Feb:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/christmas_08/657824-All-Lapland-New-Forest-posts-here-please?reverse=1

Quote Lapland New Forest also has a subsidiary company which does not appear to be going into liquidation. It is called THE LAPLAND EXPERIENCE LIMITED Company No. 02356384. I wonder if that is where all the money has gone?!! end quote.

BTW - DON'T [EMAIL="DON@FORGET"]FORGET[/EMAIL] TO DO YOUR CHARGEBACK & REGISTER AS A CREDITOR UNTIL YOUR REFUND COMES THROUGH. IF YOU CAN'T DO A CHARGEBACK, STILL REGISTER AS A CREDITOR.

EdnaCloud

whitewing wrote: »

Hi Edna,

Thank goodness you posted. I thought I'd killed the thread.

I don't think any post of yours would kill the thread. I just wish there were more active posters here. It seems like just me and you most of the time.

I hadn't noticed this before:
**snip**
tops it all for us for 2008. I paid by cheque as on the day I called to book the lady told me they were having problems with their credit card machine and could I possibly send a cheque. I should of trusted my instincts then as the address she gave me to send it to was a PO Box number. I spent two weeks wondering if we would receive the tickets, which we eventually did for all the good it has done!!!

Well let's hope GT are viewing this thread. Just to be on the safe side it may be worth posting the links to this a nd the original article to GT - I will do that later today (unless whitewing beats me to it!)
GT please pay attention to this:

It does make you wonder about the cheques. Were people encouraged to send cheques rather than pay by card? Did we ever find out who cheques were being made payable to? If the tickets were sent two weeks later, then they probably waited for cheques to clear so there must have been some paperwork there. Wonder if cheque payers got Grant Thornton letters?

Edna

EdnaCloud

whitewing wrote: »

Has this any relevance to anything (assuming it is true)?
from mumsnet 18th Feb:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/christmas_08/657824-All-Lapland-New-Forest-posts-here-please?reverse=1

Quote Lapland New Forest also has a subsidiary company which does not appear to be going into liquidation. It is called THE LAPLAND EXPERIENCE LIMITED Company No. 02356384. I wonder if that is where all the money has gone?!! end quote.

I don't think this is in the least bit relevant and the original poster on 'mumsnet' should be careful of suggesting connections between companies where none are shown to exist. I would also like to know where the poster got this information from and how they have proved a connection.

Now, a quick check at Companies House (that the person posting the above misleading information on 'mumsnet' could and **should** have done) shows this:-

Co No: 02356384 The Lapland experience Ltd predates LNF by some 18 years and is dormant. The registered office is the same as Canterbury Travel Ltd - a reputable travel company as far as I can surmise. (Further background information below). Details of Co No: 02356384 here.
http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/76d041a99fb19e3b96eac063f83b9c00/compdetails

Now, Co No 00995587 Canterbury Travel (London) Ltd, details at:
http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/ba726353bea725d241e3fdc860655ba3/compdetails
was incorporated some 38 years ago.
It appears that Canterbury Travel use the term 'The Lapland Experience' as a trading style. Their website is clear and complies with publication requirements (unlike anything Mears did) and I do not suspect them to be involved in LNF in any way whatsoever.

It is quite possible, if not probable, that Canterbury Travel brought the company 'The Lapland Experience Ltd' to either use the company in the future or to avoid confusion with other companies. This is perfectly legitimate and in fact a good working practice in company formation.

I think we should ignore this misleading information from someone on 'mumsnet', but if the poster is also here I would suggest that they withdraw any accusation of connection between 'The Lapland Experience' and LNF unless they can prove it in court. To accuse a company of connection with a company which is going through liquidation and that has a number of questions hanging over it is not only opening the poster to action against them in the civil courts, but also shows them to be extremely ignorant of company law and structure, and to speak out from a point of ignorance is folly of the greatest form.

BTW - DON'T FORGET TO DO YOUR CHARGEBACK & REGISTER AS A CREDITOR UNTIL YOUR REFUND COMES THROUGH. IF YOU CAN'T DO A CHARGEBACK, STILL REGISTER AS A CREDITOR.

HEAR HEAR - Please follow whitewing's advice, folk.

yorksrabbit

http://www.santa-holidays.com/