Asked for Dental NHS Scale and Polish.Told "Go to Hygienist at £25 extra"

boozercruiser

coldstreamalways wrote: »

Not that you have posted pap boozer but you could always just post a link to the relevant website instead of the reams of incomprehensible muddled cut and paste that seems to be your usual style.

1. The PAP was Apollonas...not mine.:D

2. I accept that your link point is a valid one.

3. However, it is not MY preferred WAY.

4. You are also right that cut and paste is my usual style.

5. I don't always agree with certain others style here either.

6. God....Apollonas whinging about the size of my fonts...your whinging about my cut and paste.....others with vested interests whinge that I ever started this post in the first place and like you, have a pop at every opportunity.

6. Please all do as I do.....get over it!:D

7. Cheers:beer:

boozercruiser

jsinc wrote: »

Thanks to all that replied. Boozercruiser - to be fair to the dentist he didn't direct me to see the hygienist, but that any polishing/cleaning would be done by them.

As general points, I think there's some confusion (certainly with me) about the difference between scale and polish vs cleaning. I thought they were the same thing, but re. your answers above abviously not. This may stem from the fact that - Welshdent - as to my earlier point about hygienists, until this dentist (joined about 3 years ago) I had never visited a separate hygienist to the dentist. For a period I was a prvate patient so may not have noticed changes.

I tried to word my post to describe my genuine confusion, so appreciate your replies. I don't think this system works for those like me, as I look after myself and I'm not paying £16.50 for someone to count my teeth, whatever their overheads. The net result is that I will be going less frequently and privately closer to work, leaving a (possibly) less orally hygienic person to take my place who will possibly need more work and be less able to afford to maintain a higher standard.

In times gone by following a check up or a course of Dental Treatment the Dentist would always finish with a Scale and Polish to get the build up of tarter off the teeth.

All inside the NHS fee.

In recent years however the practice has slowly taken hold for that to be done after your general treatment by the Hygienist at extra cost.

This frees up more time for more patients to have general treatment who in turn are advised to go to the Hygienist.

All of this of course means more profit for the Dentist and jobs for more Hygienists.

jsinc.....You may have noticed, but aside from Welshdent and some others here you will not get any sympathy for just expecting a Scale and Polish of your teeth after treatment as it used to be.

Since I started this thread I have been detested by the vested interest brigade here who see me as some sort of enemy because I am exposing some Dentists who are not doing work that they should be doing as per NHS Contract and regulations.

It's a good job that.....Frankly My Dear....I Don't Give A Damn...isn't it?;)

welshdent

From a devils advocate perspective though ... how much SHOULD the NHS pay for?

jsinc you may well unfortunately feel all you are doing is paying for someone to count your teeth, I could not disagree with you more ... however I stress again.... We do not make the rules. The dental contract was imposed on us and we were told sign it or !!!!!! off and we tell everyone how greedy you are for depriving people of NHS dentistry .... no accounting for it being a horrendous contract.
Whether you agree with it or not ... you are not entitled to whatever you would like. You are entitled to an examination and diagnosis. On the basis of that diagnosis you are entitled to treatment to make you better. I am not going to go in to costs for the practice because I dont think it would make much difference to you. I am simply stating the realities of how it is. BC WAS Told he had a problem that required treatment. You were told you did not need any. Your 2 cases from what I can see are completely different.

We sadly can not refer back to the days of the old contract. Aside from the fact I wasnt working then, the government have COMPLETELY changed the system. The very ethos behind the new contract is to STOP the un necessary clean and polishes. It actively punishes the dentist for doing lots of treatment. I most certainly would not allow you to see my hygienist as an NHS course of treatment because she would charge me more than the NHS pays me to do you check up AND scale and polish. I would have an examination to justify my treatment plan and have never withheld any necessary treatment to anyone. But that doesnt mean I go around giving un necessary scale and polishes.

Incidentally going privately will probably cost you more for someone to count your teeth and definitely more for the scale and polish

boozercruiser

welshdent wrote: »

From a devils advocate perspective though ... how much SHOULD the NHS pay for?

jsinc you may well unfortunately feel all you are doing is paying for someone to count your teeth, I could not disagree with you more ... however I stress again.... We do not make the rules. The dental contract was imposed on us and we were told sign it or !!!!!! off and we tell everyone how greedy you are for depriving people of NHS dentistry .... no accounting for it being a horrendous contract.
Whether you agree with it or not ... you are not entitled to whatever you would like. You are entitled to an examination and diagnosis. On the basis of that diagnosis you are entitled to treatment to make you better. I am not going to go in to costs for the practice because I dont think it would make much difference to you. I am simply stating the realities of how it is. BC WAS Told he had a problem that required treatment. You were told you did not need any. Your 2 cases from what I can see are completely different.

We sadly can not refer back to the days of the old contract. Aside from the fact I wasnt working then, the government have COMPLETELY changed the system. The very ethos behind the new contract is to STOP the un necessary clean and polishes. It actively punishes the dentist for doing lots of treatment. I most certainly would not allow you to see my hygienist as an NHS course of treatment because she would charge me more than the NHS pays me to do you check up AND scale and polish. I would have an examination to justify my treatment plan and have never withheld any necessary treatment to anyone. But that doesnt mean I go around giving un necessary scale and polishes.

Incidentally going privately will probably cost you more for someone to count your teeth and definitely more for the scale and polish

I don't know quite how it happens, but as usual I agree with everything Welshdent says here.:D

It is true that the last Government made a right hash of Dentists Contracts though that have been bad for them as well as patients.

I understand that this new Government are trying to sort out a new way forward in NHS Dentistry.

However, If the blunders and badly thought out decisions of recent months are anything to go by....I won't hold my breath that NHS Dentistry will improve for either Dentists or Patients any time soon.:(

jsinc

Welshdent - actually in principle I don't believe it's the job of taxpayers to subsidise adult dental costs at all, except in case of emergency. With reference to your 'entitlement' language, you write as if I am getting treated for free, so I infer from how you word your message that the cost to the surgery is greater than £16.50? Contrary to what you think, I am interested to know how, in my case, this could amount to more than that for literally 60 seconds counting? And I mean this from my perspective, not whether the surgery manages its own time efficiently. I'm not trying to be obtuse on the issue - this is just my experience of the last decade of dentists. I do appreciate that not all cases are as straightforward as mine, and my own case may change in the future but as I only have this experience to relate, £16.50 is my benchmark.

As to the private question - as I started to explain before, in my case NHS is proving far more expensive. I can use a notionally more expensive private dentist that costs £80 private v NHS of £63.50 (£16.50 + £47 hygienist). The private surgery enables me to pop in during lunch, without taking any time off, whereas I can only register as an NHS patient close to home - which incurs time off work and loss of earnings far great than the difference between the two sums.

Again as a general point, I find it bizarre that if I stopped brushing/flossing etc and turned up with a build up of tartar, the dentist would expend time in a scale and polish of my teeth, yet if I do the opposite I am not 'entitled' to the same.

brook2jack

If you have no disease why would you want treatment? A "scale and polish" on the NHS is to treat disease not cosmetically enhance the look of teeth to remove staining etc, however in private practice there is no such barrier to treatment.

in terms of economics the surgery will recieve your £16ish plus some money from pct to make up 1 uda on average £22 this is the same amount of money whether you run a surgery somewhere expensive to have a business ,like London, or cheaper like the suburbs..The surgery will recieve no other money from anyone to cover running costs,staffing,training,equipment,disposables,it etc,etc.This band one covers check ups,xrays, periodontal treatment,and various other treatments.

The average nhs surgery costs £120 to £130 an hour to run each room. The money has to cover this time and also the times when the surgery is not being used eg when patients fail to turn up (40% of new patients fail to turn up and the average nhs surgery loses 2 working weeks a year due to people failing to turn up), when compulsory and optional training is done and holidays,sickness etc.

an average NHS checkup will be booked out for 10 mins. If nothing else needs doing then this just about covers costs. Add on xrays, and scaling and polishing that is not clinically necessary and you would be better off handing a patient a fiver to go elsewhere. The average private checkup is much longer because the dentist can charge for the amount of time they feel it takes to do the job well.

on the NHS each treatment generates up to 5 different forms to be filled out. On private or nhs patients instruments have to be provided that are either sterilised or disposed of and the surgery and surfaces disinfected between each patient.

A check up notes not only your teeth but gums, soft tissues,jaw joints,face etc and there are around 200 diseases you can diagnose from just looking at your tongue alone. Dentists daily are the first people to diagnose everything from diabetes to oral cancer.

No NHS practice can keep going if it is not hyperefficient. In my NHS days I used to see 40 to 60 patients a day . Privately 25ish a day.

As you have discovered the pay off is that NHS practices have to run at such a rate they cannot offer appointments for whenever you want and the strict regulation and economics of NHS practice are such that you will not be offered on the nhs anything that is not strictly necessary.

boozercruiser

jsinc wrote: »

Welshdent - actually in principle I don't believe it's the job of taxpayers to subsidise adult dental costs at all, except in case of emergency. With reference to your 'entitlement' language, you write as if I am getting treated for free, so I infer from how you word your message that the cost to the surgery is greater than £16.50? Contrary to what you think, I am interested to know how, in my case, this could amount to more than that for literally 60 seconds counting? And I mean this from my perspective, not whether the surgery manages its own time efficiently. I'm not trying to be obtuse on the issue - this is just my experience of the last decade of dentists. I do appreciate that not all cases are as straightforward as mine, and my own case may change in the future but as I only have this experience to relate, £16.50 is my benchmark.

As to the private question - as I started to explain before, in my case NHS is proving far more expensive. I can use a notionally more expensive private dentist that costs £80 private v NHS of £63.50 (£16.50 + £47 hygienist). The private surgery enables me to pop in during lunch, without taking any time off, whereas I can only register as an NHS patient close to home - which incurs time off work and loss of earnings far great than the difference between the two sums.

Again as a general point, I find it bizarre that if I stopped brushing/flossing etc and turned up with a build up of tartar, the dentist would expend time in a scale and polish of my teeth, yet if I do the opposite I am not 'entitled' to the same.

I think Brook2Jack has answered you pretty well jsink. Though why anyone would want to be an NHS Dentist with all the negatives and poor pay (Gimmie that £5 and I will shove off, and If I could visit enough Dentists I could make enough to visit the Hygienist):rotfl: is anyones guess.:D

Perhaps it is because Dentists enjoy Care In The Community?:rotfl:

Regarding your Tarter...you won't get a Scale and Polish just for that....unless you have one of many Gum problems which require treatment.

And even then...nowadays too many Dentists will take it that most patients are either ignorant of entitlements and/or are too frightened to say anything, and shove them off to the Hygienist for your £47 (God.....it is getting expensive guys...isn't it?!):D

However, even I think that your expectations are just a little too high. And I don't say that easily.:eek:

welshdent

jsinc the reason why in your case your 60 second counting equates to 16.50 is because that IS the NHS charge for a band 1. There is zero other option available to the dentist. I say entitlement because I dont know how else to explain it to you. You attended for NHS care and thats what the care is. It provides entitlement to examination, diagnosis and necessary intervention to restore you to dental health.

If you left your mouth to develop plaque and calculus then that would clearly change your diagnosis ... although you may then need band 2 care for periodontal treatment. Your issue to me seems misplaced. You are directing your furstrations at the dentist when its the contract that is causing them

welshdent

p.s. if you didnt NEED to see the hygienist ... why go? From my interpretation you were told you did not need it doing but if you wanted one you should see the hygienist?
Well as I say, dont go. If you dont already have one, get a rechargeable electric tooth brush. Use it 3 times a day. I have never had a scale and polish. I have never needed one.

boozercruiser

welshdent wrote: »

p.s. if you didnt NEED to see the hygienist ... why go? From my interpretation you were told you did not need it doing but if you wanted one you should see the hygienist?
Well as I say, dont go. If you dont already have one, get a rechargeable electric tooth brush. Use it 3 times a day. I have never had a scale and polish. I have never needed one.

That is an excellent summary welshdent:T
After what I have learned here, even I would not say anything to the Dentist asking for a Scale and Polish following either a check up or some sort of treatment, (a filling perhaps) unless of course I am told that I have Gum Problems and that I should see the Hygienist for the treatment of it.:D

It took 2 years but I have got it now!:D I think?:beer:

Now then, how much is agood quality rechargable electric brush?:D