What class are you? Poll results/discussion

IanatSeaton

I have to agree with Gangstabird who near to the top of this thread said
"We are all working class really as we work." I once attended a golf club agm and a suggestion had been made to put in a snooker table. A local self employed accountant (running his own firm) said that this would make the club like a "Working Mens Club" - I asked, looking around the room, "Apart from the reired members, how many of us do not work for a living?" as there were no answers, I suggested that this meant we were obviously all working class then! The club now has a very popular and well used snooker table.

Surely it is not the size of your salary that counts but merely the fact that you work for a living that makes you working class. But like others have said you either have real "class" or you don't, and that is nothing to do with money or working life.

Caterina

Puzzle:

Me: descendant of Italian upper class (titled, land-owning, professional family), left home at 15, done mostly manual work for many years then office work. No qualifications, but a really "middle class" attitude - whatever that means....

DH: descendant of Northern working class miners, stayed at home and studied until got two degrees and good professional job, now also got an MSc, but has a strong "working class" ethos and view of life.

Children: Went to local state primary and comprehensive, speak with broad London accents, boy not academic but very musical, a bit of a rebel. Girl, very academic, now in Arts college.

What are we?

Caterina

ceridwen

Apolobamba wrote: »

It is rather 'sadder' to write someone off because you don't like the shops they go to. I suppose on some levels we ARE now identified purely by our status or choices within consumer society, but you can't be suggesting that that is a GOOD basis to judge people, surely? And what if you are someone who doesn't see much advertising (trust me, it can be done) and doesn't care about the label?

On the basis of my shopping, I am a proud VegetableBoxer, with LocalFarmShoppish parents (so I must be adopted, hey) ... fellow VegetableBoxers unite!

Quite....blow what shops are called....one chooses which shops to go to on the basis of whether they have stuff that matches the quality expected and the tastes you have. Marks & Spencers - its because its the "easiest" shop I know to shop from for clothes....try on at home/have months to take them back if you've changed your mind and havent used them/buy the same thing in umpteen different colours if you want/order your size if they dont have it in - that sounds pretty easy to me. Habitat - one-stop shop for plain modern stuff at reasonable quality - again my taste - so its easy for me to find a choice of things I like. Simple - they're my shops because they suit me - no other reason. B.....r appearances....if I havent got any money I say so (on my salary - thats quite frequent;) ).

Organic as possible - because its healthier/more ethical.

Vegetarian - because its healthier/cheaper/more ethical

Home-owner - because its more secure and I can do what I please to it (within reason).

ceridwen

Jennifer_Jane wrote: »

This is madness - when is the UK ever going to stop talking about class! It should all have disappeared by now. We're all much the same. We all go on holidays overseas, and have TV sets and PC's and things. There's really no difference between us that can, or should be, categorised by 'class'.

For me - looking at the demographic group by occupation - I'm currently a C1 (clerical) and going to be E next year (pensioner). I have two diplomas, one in Marketing and one in Financial Planning, and so on.

Jen
x

Quite - thats why its a pretty stupid concept in many ways - mainly because its allied to the job/career one has. You're still the same person - you dont change your attitudes/values/tastes/expectations of life because you've swopped to and fro possibly between a decently-paid career/a poorly-paid job/unemployment/retired - YOU dont change yourself. Even dafter for women - as we are "classified" according to husbands job/career still - how daft is that?:cool: We arent the same as our husbands (if we have one) automatically - we are whatever we are or arent in our own right.

ceridwen

Welshwoofs wrote: »

I tend to think that economic class is a completely different thing to the tradition definition of 'class' and the traditional definition is based on a mixture of ancestry, education and social customs but not money.

The term 'upper class' in my mind is reserved for aristocracy and 'upper middle' to those who, whilst not personally titled, are of an aristocratic family. They almost certainly went to private school and aren't into overt displays of wealth (unlike the Nouveau riche). They probably know the dates various game is in season and which way to pass the port. They'll have 'drawing rooms', 'morning rooms' and 'sitting rooms' but never 'lounges'. They'll eat 'lunch' and 'dinner', never 'dinner' and 'tea'. They sit on 'sofas' and tip soup bowls away from themselves. They'll probably more likely to be shod in Hunter wellies than Jimmy Choos. They'll be found on Scottish estates, but never at corporate shooting days.

The 'middle class' I tend to think of as the professions; doctors, lawyers etc who come from a fairly affluent background, perhaps private school education, but could also be comprehensive. Almost certainly university educated (unlike the upper/upper middle class who may or may not be).

'Upper working' I tend to think of as those who have working class social customs, but have progressed to a higher career level, most likely via university education. State school educated. They probably wouldn't know the ettiquette of whether a professional title comes before or after an ancestral title when addressing an envelope, and probably have a 'settee' in a 'lounge'. They may well have wealth and use it to make life more materially comfortable.

'Working class' - State school educated, no university education. Will almost certainly work in lower level admin jobs, unskilled labour or the trades. May do well financially if in the trades. Same social customs as 'Upper working' - more likely to be found at a football match on a weekend than a polo match.

'Underclass' - The NEETs basically! Those who've never worked (though physically and mentally able to), poorly educated, unskilled, poor parenting skills and almost certainly in social housing.

Well....I'll "tip that lot on its head" straight off.....my meals are breakfast/lunch/dinner and what I sit on is a sofa and the room its in is a sitting room and I might use a napkin if I'm being "posh" - but the nearest I've ever come to private schools is working in them. I've got Hunter wellies - because they're the colour I want - blow the brand name. Knowing which dates game are in season - I do hope you're not eating game (poor animals shot for a hobby for someone). The only dates I'm likely to know are payday and maybe when its a full moon. The pay I'm on - not much difference between me and someone on N.M.W.:mad: The job I'm in - waste of space - but needs must! It's "cheers" or "thank you" for something according to the person on the receiving end - ie "cheers" at work and "thank you" out of work. Its a bit of a "hardened/toughie" attitude at work (to survive without being "flayed alive") and "gentle" manners when out socialising or with my parents - to fit in with the surroundings I find myself in (so I worry in one half of my life that I'm not being "tough" enough to protect myself and in the other half of my life I worry that I'm too "harsh" and will be inadvertently offending someone). I think "chameleon" is the word I need for this. One of the reasons why retirement will be a vast relief is that I will be able to be the same person 24/7 - rather than having to stop and "adjust" mentally all the damn time.

fudgecat

Interesting! Have first class honours degree and teach in an independent school, so theoretically middle-class, however am married to a school caretaker, come from working class parents (first in my family to get a degree and won scholarship to public school from very rough state primary), have put my children through the state system (OK, grammar school).
Where does that put me? Working class with some middle-class tastes (Booker prize and Guardian), but a tendency to slide down the greasy pole and watch Jeremy Kyle and Judge Judy when I think I am not observed... Clincher is that my children have a better accent than me - and naturally, not just when I am putting on the phone voice. They must be middle-class then?

ceridwen

Talking about the "opening a can of worms" - one mustnt forget that the current definitions (based on job/career one has) take no account whatsoever of two facts:

- many middle-aged onwards women were brought up in a pretty "traditional" way - so havent achieved the job/career level they would have done of themselves if they had been born a decade or so later (so why the heck should they get "marked down" because of the year they were born in/their upbringing?)

- many people of both sexes in the young generation (ie teens and twenties) are struggling to find a job/career that "matches" their interests/abilities/expectations at the moment and might very well be doing a lower level of job/career than they would have expected to at the moment - but they are still the same person/values/expectations/tastes - so why should they be "marked down" for that reason?

I think personally that the only "difference" left is of whether one expects to plan one's life or regards oneself as being "at the mercy of fate". There will probably continue to be a huge "lack of understanding gap" between these two ways of looking at life that I doubt is bridgeable - even though those in the "plan your life - rather than get buffeted by fate" brigade realise that life can "bite you on the bum" with the best will in the world - darn it!

All round - I think the only conclusion one can come to is that we are going to have to abandon the whole concept of "class" as "not fit for purpose".

donaldtramp

I've always been intrigued by this debate and I don't judge people at all because of what class I perceive them to be in (my folks didn't bring me up like that;)) except, (and I admit and can't help it) the underclass. It does pain me to see them spend my tax money when I know they are capable of doing work that they can do and/or consider beneath them. But I digress...

According to both the indexes I am apparently upper middle, I've worked really, really hard and I do enjoy having cash to spend, why not? I do have a very stressful job and am rewarded well for it.

The thing about perceived class, money etc that gets me in this country is the jealousy and the constant trying to bring people down because they have done well for themselves and worked hard. What is that about? This seems particularly prevalent in the UK. You see it in the papers all the time, the gloating and joy in seeing people "being brought down a peg"
Let everyone get on with their life the they wish to lead it, they are not harming me. I feel no joy in seeing someone fall on hard times.

I drive a nice car that gets "keyed" every time I park it overnight in a city centre.
This obviously very much annoys me but it also saddens me, to see people who are jealous and wish to stop people getting ahead or having nice things. I find it very depressing but I suppose it's human nature. What does that say about our culture?

I also believe that people who think they are in a class above than their income/job can provide for causes real problems financially, socially and mentally. I've read a really good book on the topic,
Affluenza, by Oliver James, (here is the Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluenza

A great deal of society (though probably less so if you are on MSE;)) have bought into this "because I'm worth it" culture. We are told that we NEED this or NEED that, and aspire to have material things that we really cannot afford hence taking on debt to acquire things that we don't really need or can afford.
I do think this idea of class is a bit outdated and people trying to live up to (Hyacinth Bouquet types!) cause untold harm to their finances and lives.

Just my ramblings....
DT

Jennifer_Jane

Thanks, Ceridwen, I agree with you completely. Beautifully put, I thought.
Jen
x

Welshwoofs

ceridwen wrote: »

Knowing which dates game are in season - I do hope you're not eating game (poor animals shot for a hobby for someone).

I think you're generalising a little to say that game is 'poor animals shot for a hobby'. I agree in some instances (corporate pheasant shoots spring to mind here) you're bang on the money. However I have no problem eating game which has to have its population controlled and is being shot for food.

I agree with your other points - class is very confusing. I consider myself a 'class mutt'. My Father is a self-made man who grew up in a slum, finished school at 14 and got his first job washing out rubbish bins at the back of Woolies. My Mother hails from a titled family and had the full benefits of growing up with a nanny, going on to Rodean and a Swiss finishing school. My Father is loaded with a large house full of 'shiny things' and my Mother is as poor as a church mouse in a tiny house full of heirlooms.

I went to the local state school, but then (bizarrely in my view) was sent to finishing school. I dropped out of university, but make a good living despite that. I talk with what I'm told is a 'plummy' accent (my OH loves to make me say 'power shower'..or apparently 'paaar shaar' in my case), which I generally use to utter long strings of expletives or order pints of Guinness. I'm equally at home in the stands at a footie match as I am in a tent at Henley Regatta.

I think the only truly important thing about class is that, no matter which one you are, you don't judge others for theirs.