Solicitor slow over probate

sdooley

I do hope your solicitor isn't this one:

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Solicitor-accused-of-stealing-45000.4478090.jp

There are clearly a lot of bad solicitors out there - although proportionately with over 100,000 solicitors in the country and a regulatory body with very strong statutory investigatory powers at least they are getting caught. Willwriters are great and a helpful way forward but with only 2 in Greater Manchester they aren't yet the answer to everyone's problems (and I haven't seen any evidence they are fraud-free, although the training and PI cover is obviously a good thing).

I'm beginning to come around to the pessimistic point of view on all this even though I know many very talented, honest, efficient people working in probate for solicitor's firms. To be able to get rid of bad apples, there needs to be a quicker mechanism for removing unwanted executors, without the need to prove fault.

sloughflint

sdooley wrote: »

I do hope your solicitor isn't this one:

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Solicitor-accused-of-stealing-45000.4478090.jp

There are clearly a lot of bad solicitors out there - although proportionately with getting on for 1 million solicitors in the country and a regulatory body with very strong statutory investigatory powers at least they are getting caught. Willwriters are great and a helpful way forward but with only 2 in Greater Manchester they aren't yet the answer to everyone's problems (and I haven't seen any evidence they are fraud-free, although the training and PI cover is obviously a good thing).

I'm beginning to come around to the pessimistic point of view on all this even though I know many very talented, honest, efficient people working in probate for solicitor's firms. To be able to get rid of bad apples, there needs to be a quicker mechanism for removing unwanted executors, without the need to prove fault.

Dishonesty and fraud is a different matter. You get bad eggs in any profession. OP's solicitor has only demonstrated incompetence at this stage.That is what needs to be dealt with on a nationwide scale.
To me the answer is perfectly simple. Enforce relevant qualifications.It's a disgrace that it is not enforced.

ukmaggie45

Hi there sdooley, so glad to see you return to the thread. :T

sdooley wrote: »

I do hope your solicitor isn't this one:

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Solicitor-accused-of-stealing-45000.4478090.jp

You will be relieved to hear that this is NOT our solicitor! Phew (wipes hand across brow )

sdooley wrote: »

There are clearly a lot of bad solicitors out there - although proportionately with getting on for 1 million solicitors in the country and a regulatory body with very strong statutory investigatory powers at least they are getting caught. Willwriters are great and a helpful way forward but with only 2 in Greater Manchester they aren't yet the answer to everyone's problems (and I haven't seen any evidence they are fraud-free, although the training and PI cover is obviously a good thing).

I think will writing has become more and more complex over the years. Parental wills were written in 1997, but things have changed a lot since then. So far as I understand - have to try and understand the legal stuff but not good at it. Seems to me that firms who employ staff specifically trained in will writing should do well.

sdooley wrote: »

I'm beginning to come around to the pessimistic point of view on all this even though I know many very talented, honest, efficient people working in probate for solicitor's firms. To be able to get rid of bad apples, there needs to be a quicker mechanism for removing unwanted executors, without the need to prove fault.

I am sure that you are right in saying there are honest and efficient people dealing with this area of law. It's just it's going to be hard for many to find one. I do think that organisations like STEP will change things over time. And it's good for professionals to have the opportunity to confer with their fellow professionals - have a feeling that it may feel quite isolating dealing with this kind of stuff alone.

sloughflint

ukmaggie45 wrote: »

I think will writing has become more and more complex over the years. Parental wills were written in 1997, but things have changed a lot since then.

No I disagree with you. One of my experiences was due to a poorly solicitor drafted Will long before 1997. Sadly problems can lie dormant for many years.

The profession needs to be suitably qualified.

ukmaggie45

I'm using husband's notes, made immediately after the meeting, as my source. While I was present at this meeting, it rather boggled my mind...

Accountant is still waiting response from solicitor to written and phoned requests to see Mum and Dad's estate papers to see if income tax can be reclaimed.

Specialist took main details from wills and probate applications and assured self that everything so far looks consistant.

When we spoke of delays specialist advised restraint - there isn't a set timescale, many solicitors/lawyers do take this long.

Specialist phoned Independant Financial Advisor (expert in tax and probate and writes wills) and initial reaction was same as Specialists - can't vary father's will now to divert inheritance tax back to beneficiaries. But called an expert helpline he uses when he needs specialist advice, and they said yes! But it will need a Double Deed of Variation,

So we are going along with that for now, am a bit muddled today as knackered after yesterday (we went and packed more stuff up from the flat after the meeting) so will update as things move on.

Mail still arriving for parents, mix of dividends and begging letters - the latter we are marking "Deceased, return to sender" and just chucking back in the post. Dividends are going to solicitor.

One thing that I recall from the meeting that I don't think husband recorded... I asked about paying the beneficiaries with the Government Bonds instead of cashing them in. Seems that is possible. Then grandchildren can either keep till they mature or cash them in themselves if they need the cash for any large purchase. Which should make things easier.

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this thread - it's made a difficult and stressful time much easier than it was before I started posting. If you see what I mean!

You are all wonderful. :A :T :T :T

ukmaggie45

Hi sloughflint,

sloughflint wrote: »

No I disagree with you. One of my experiences was due to a poorly drafted Will long before 1997. Sadly problems can lie dormant for many years.

The profession needs to be suitably qualified.

I think that's kinda what I was meaning - it was over 10 years since parents' wills written, and things have changed somewhat even in that time. I can well imagine that older wills might have yet more problems.

I totally agree with you that professionals need to be suitably qualified, and also keep their knowledge up to date with continuing professional education.

Thank you again for your contributions - I really appreciate the points you have raised. :A

sloughflint

ukmaggie45 wrote: »

Accountant is still waiting response from solicitor to written and phoned requests to see Mum and Dad's estate papers to see if income tax can be reclaimed.

Specialist took main details from wills and probate applications and assured self that everything so far looks consistant.

Specialist phoned Independant Financial Advisor (expert in tax and probate and writes wills) and initial reaction was same as Specialists - can't vary father's will now to divert inheritance tax back to beneficiaries. But called an expert helpline he uses when he needs specialist advice, and they said yes! But it will need a Double Deed of Variation,

Wow, what a lot of confusion over one DOV. You mention specialist in the second paragraph so a different person to the accountant. A STEP person?

sloughflint

ukmaggie45 wrote: »

Hi sloughflint,



I think that's kinda what I was meaning - it was over 10 years since parents' wills written, and things have changed somewhat even in that time. I can well imagine that older wills might have yet more problems.

I totally agree with you that professionals need to be suitably qualified, and also keep their knowledge up to date with continuing professional education.

Laws may well change over time. That's where DOVs can be handy to lower IHT liabilities for example as laws change.
My point is rather to do with incorrectly drafted Wills which should not happen.

ukmaggie45 wrote: »

I totally agree with you that professionals need to be suitably qualified, and also keep their knowledge up to date with continuing professional education.

And if solicitors are the most common form of will-writers then SRA should be doing something to ensure that this is so.

sdooley

localhero, you are raising my (already quite high) view of the Institute of Willwriters with your erudite and broadly accurate posts. Still not sure about the tone of your signature but I'll let that pass! (All solicitors have to study equity and trusts in their academic education and probate in their Legal Practice Course, and anyone working in the field of probate is required to undertake further relevant training).

I have one small quibble.

I am unsure that a Deed of Variation and an 'instrument of variation' are the same thing for tax purposes. If you can't show consideration, an instrument which is not by deed (or being even more arcane an instrument which is not a contract under seal) is revocable (can be cancelled). Would a variation still be accepted by HMRC for IHT and CGT purposes (depending on the relevant sections being claimed) even if it is not by deed?

I've seen this http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ihtmanual/IHTM35022.htm which is obviously helpful as it sets out the Revenue's treatment but I'm fairly sure this must be concessionary rather than an actual statement of the law. Otherwise a direction could be given by letter, citing s.142, and a rebate of IHT claimed but then countermanded before the gift proposed under the letter takes effect.

And only solicitors can prepare Deeds? Is that still the law - must be going soon with all the reviews going on in the field. Very anti-competitive.

Sorry for veering off on a tangent again & I'm glad your specialist accountant and IFA are helping now - at least they do call the helpline when they don't know everything!

Knowing what you don't know is the true knowledge. Knowing where to find the answer is expertise!

localhero

Ukmaggie, were you told by this 'expert' why it was deemed necessary for a 'double Deed of Variation' in view of what I said in my last post? I'm afraid a financial adviser is not the right person to be seeking advice from in this area, and what you've been told sounds like it's incorrect.

In addition, there ARE deadlines in respect of the Deed of Variation. In order to make tax savings up to £120,000 the document must be properly executed within 2 years of your father's death.

You really must obtain decent professional advice at this stage - contact STEP as soon as possible and sound out various members on the phone initially to see if what they suggest matches with what I told you in my last post.

Only once you are comfortable you are in safe hands should you make an appointment to see them with a view to instructing them to act. In view of the deadlines and the mess that your solicitor has caused, it's essential that you find somebody capable as soon as possible.