Solicitor slow over probate

sloughflint

sdooley wrote: »

Yes but he still had over six months, so no loss has been caused yet. I'm not defending him, just that he has a legal right to do this work and hasn't been negligent as yet (no loss has been caused and no undue delay - that's what he would argue).

Again the threat may cause as much response as the action. It's the Legal Complaints Service / Solicitors Regulation Authority now not the Law Society. Taking a complaint is tempting but it will likely just delay things further. Even just getting the solicitor's boss / senior partner to look over his shoulder would be a good thing.

Probate has been granted so I presume IHT has been paid albeit past the 1st April deadline. Isn't that enough to establish incompetence?
I am trying to put myself in Op's shoes. I would not want this person doing anything else and risk arguing with 'the specialist' and waste time and money.Ideally this has gone beyond a simple client care partner complaint.
Op has 9 months left of the crucial 2 years for a DOV. Is that enough time to do a formal complaint and get a DOV written? I suppose LCS can advise.
If timing is tight, then I hope LCS will look into things after the ordeal is over.

localhero

Sdooley,

The solicitor may not have been negligent in the strict sense of the word, but I would agree with sloughflint he has been grossly incompetent.

His conduct has been disgraceful, and if that's normal conduct for a solicitor then the legal profession is in pretty poor shape.

If this individual has failed to spot a potential to save his client over £100,000 in IHT, they really shouldn't be getting involved in probate work.

Clinging on to clients' cash and not keeping the clients informed throughout the probate process seems to be a common bugbear for ordinary mortals that have put their trust in solicitors. The profession really ought to pull its socks up.

ukmaggie45

Greetings to everyone again! And thank you for the ongoing discussion.

I had a lovely extended weekend birthday party, on the day we managed to consume 5 bottles of champers :cheesy: (between 6 of us and over the whole evening and with lots of food I hasten to add! ). am now recovering from the frenetic pace of the last few days - last of the guests left on Tuesday.

Husband had meeting with solicitor yesterday...

sloughflint wrote: »

Probate has been granted so I presume IHT has been paid albeit past the 1st April deadline. Isn't that enough to establish incompetence?
I am trying to put myself in Op's shoes. I would not want this person doing anything else and risk arguing with 'the specialist' and waste time and money.Ideally this has gone beyond a simple client care partner complaint.

Yes, that's correct, probate has been granted and IHT paid. Solicitor used money that came from my father (in client account) to pay IHT on mother's estate.

You are right that I don't want this chap doing any more if it were only possible! Especially after a phone call with husband yesterday about his meeting (see below) with him. I'm still at the caravan in Wales, as we decided it was better for me not to go to this meeting as there was too much danger of me punching the chap on the nose!

sloughflint wrote: »

Op has 9 months left of the crucial 2 years for a DOV. Is that enough time to do a formal complaint and get a DOV written? I suppose LCS can advise.
If timing is tight, then I hope LCS will look into things after the ordeal is over.

I think husband probably will make a complaint to LCS, but we have to wait till the 28 days are up from solicitor getting letter of complaint from husband... We'll have time to consider our options this weekend as the forecaste is for rain and gales :eek:, so little else to do in a caravan in a field in Wales!

Anyway, please bear in mind that my account of yesterday's meeting is likely to be somewhat garbled as I was just making jotted notes of a telephone conversation I had with husband last night. He has made proper notes in "the big book".

Solicitor apologised profusely for delays etc. Doesn't want to be enemies etc. Evaded all direct questions (as usual).

He will do a cash reconcilliation for us as soon as all monies have come in. He's still waiting for them (my suspicion is that the letters to bank, building soc etc that husband signed hung around in the office till solicitor got back from his hols, but of course I don't know that).

Had a couple of phone calls from husband while he was actually in the meeting with queries. Wanted to know when one of the beneficiaries (close friend of mother) died (she pre-deceased mother).

Wanted to know what the date was that Mum admitted to hospital after which she never went back to flat. Initially I thought that maybe he would be looking at the insurance arrangements, so that John could be re-imbersed by the estate for that time until Mum died. But it appears not - water rates have asked for a lot of money, which seeing as flat was empty we weren't using water. It's not on a water meter.

He has agreed write out a cheque for my bequest as soon as money paid from mother's bank account is paid into his client account. He is expecting a telegraphic transfer (? I think that was what husband said) of funds. Not happy with that really - would prefer he paid it electronically directly into my bank account.

Says various Government Bonds will have to be surrendered in order to pay out to the various beneficiaries (unless the flat sells). Now this I was surprised at, as I thought there was sufficient readies without having to do that... But I don't have all the paperwork here, husband will bring it on Friday night when he comes down for the weekend.

We do know that there is enough in mother's bank account to pay my named inheritance (I am also the residual beneficiary), and I think we might ask if we can pay at least a proportion of cash to the other beneficiaries. It's double what I am getting for each of the 2 grandchildren (I always knew my mother didn't like me), some to husband (presumably for being executor), some to one of my cousins, and bequests to 2 of her GPs.

Now we come to the Instrument of Variance (or whatever it's called)... Oh dear oh dear oh dear! :eek: Husband asked about it. Solicitor said he'd done them before, but they didn't save IHT so no point (will get husband's notes at the weekend so then will see exactly what was said). He said if it saved IHT everyone would do it.

Now the way I thought it worked was that we go back in time so to speak, and re-write father's will to give everything to me, husband, and our kids. From what I can remember of the probate stuff, father was over the 300,000 limit, but not by a great amount (relatively speaking ). So we pay IHT on that.

Then we come back in time to mother's will. She no longer has everything my father left to her, but only what she has herself (if you see what I mean). So she too is over the 300,000 limit, but again not by a huge amount (again, relatively speaking ). So we pay on the over the IHT limit again.

Now the way that looks to me is that we save IHT payment on 300,000?

And the reason everyone doesn't do it is the 2 year time limit, seeing as one spouse may well survive the other by more than 2 years. Plus how many solicitors actually know about this? If it's more or less how I surmise it works.

I'm sure I have misunderstood how it all works, but we will be seeking further legal advice as a matter of urgency. In the short term husband will speak to my parents' tax accountant (who we trust) and see if he can give us any guidance, or at least point us to someone who can. Next week when I am at home again we will try and follow all this up.

Phew, sorry this is so long!

Best wishes from a field in Wales! :j

sdooley

You need tax advice. He clearly isn't a tax specialist. Many probate solicitors aren't, in which case they should certainly ask for or agree that you ask for specialist advice. Hope you get this sorted. You could consider checking the step.org website to see if there is a member in your area. Alternatively your accountant may have a recommendation.

The STEP member or other tax specialist solicitor should be able to advise not just on how a deed of variation can help with IHT but also on balancing that with CGT. Such advice should be sought before any gilts are surrendered as they have CGT exempt status.

ukmaggie45

sdooley wrote: »

The STEP member or other tax specialist solicitor should be able to advise not just on how a deed of variation can help with IHT but also on balancing that with CGT. Such advice should be sought before any gilts are surrendered as they have CGT exempt status.

Aaaaagggghhhh! I knew there was some reason why it wasn't a good idea to get rid of the bonds! Because we've never had any spare money we've never really gone into how to save or use savings or shares as it's not something we've needed to know in the past - just keeping up with day to day costs is as much as we can manage, and we're not even very good at that.

Will go and take a look at the step website now, but just wanted to thank you first.

:beer:

sloughflint

This thread is making me boil.
OP, DOV are common knowledge and widely used. It shouldn't have necessitated a tax specialist to suggest what sdooley did in post 22.
I agree with localhero: solicitors should not undertake probate work if they don't understand the basics.

I would do my utmost to get shot of this idiot if at all possible.
You will pay more by using a STEP member but in this situation it will probably be money well spent.

I can't understand why the money will not be sent to you by electronic transfer. I provided the beneficiary's bank details and the transfer was electronic.

I don't like the sound of having to wait 28 days for the in house complaint either. Time is of essence.

ukmaggie45 wrote: »

Now we come to the Instrument of Variance (or whatever it's called)... Oh dear oh dear oh dear! :eek: Husband asked about it. Solicitor said he'd done them before, but they didn't save IHT so no point (will get husband's notes at the weekend so then will see exactly what was said). He said if it saved IHT everyone would do it.

Now the way I thought it worked was that we go back in time so to speak, and re-write father's will to give everything to me, husband, and our kids. From what I can remember of the probate stuff, father was over the 300,000 limit, but not by a great amount (relatively speaking ). So we pay IHT on that.

Then we come back in time to mother's will. She no longer has everything my father left to her, but only what she has herself (if you see what I mean). So she too is over the 300,000 limit, but again not by a huge amount (again, relatively speaking ). So we pay on the over the IHT limit again.

Now the way that looks to me is that we save IHT payment on 300,000?

And the reason everyone doesn't do it is the 2 year time limit, seeing as one spouse may well survive the other by more than 2 years. Plus how many solicitors actually know about this? If it's more or less how I surmise it works.

I'm sure I have misunderstood how it all works, but we will be seeking further legal advice as a matter of urgency. In the short term husband will speak to my parents' tax accountant (who we trust) and see if he can give us any guidance, or at least point us to someone who can. Next week when I am at home again we will try and follow all this up.

No you haven't misunderstood how it all works at all. You understand things far better than the solicitor.
He is talking nonsense about not knowing how long the second spouse would survive.What people in your shoes did before the doubling of the IHT allowances was use Discretionary Trusts up to the value of the NRB ( £300 000 in your father's case). Perhaps not necessary here since your mother died so soon after your father.

Please see if there is any way to get shot of this man and not affect your chances of getting a DOV.

Finally, as he has overpaid IHT in the region of 120k, surely you could insist on payment pronto rather than wait for further monies to come in.Surely the firm can afford it.:rolleyes:

sdooley

There is a national shortage of people working in probate. For a non-taxpaying estate, a local solicitor will charge approximately 25% of the fees of a STEP member and even less in comparison to the banks. There is a place in the market for the bulk probate work, conducted by non-specialists, but professionals must know the limits of their own knowledge and when to seek specialist advice.

ukmaggie45

Hello again sloughflint,

sloughflint wrote: »

This thread is making me boil.
OP, DOV are common knowledge and widely used. It shouldn't have necessitated a tax specialist to suggest what sdooley did in post 22.
I agree with localhero: solicitors should not undertake probate work if they don't understand the basics.

Gosh, sorry if I'm raising your blood pressure. :beer:

I'd never heard of DOV before, but then I've never had to deal with probate before. And I'm not a lawyer. :rolleyes: Well, it's not me that's dealing with it, it's husband, but I do as much finding out of info for him as I can - he's still working full time, so doesn't have the time.

sloughflint wrote: »

I would do my utmost to get shot of this idiot if at all possible.
You will pay more by using a STEP member but in this situation it will probably be money well spent.

Have to say I'm inclined to agree it would be money well spent, especially as time is getting short. Have till near end of next July, but judging on how long this has all been going on that's not really very long.

sloughflint wrote: »

I can't understand why the money will not be sent to you by electronic transfer. I provided the beneficiary's bank details and the transfer was electronic.

Husband spoke to lawyers secretary this morning when he managed to find out when the transfer went through (2nd Sep). She seemed very surprised, but solicitor out of the office (why am I not surprised? ) she will check it on the internet and have a word when he gets back this afternoon.

Husband has taken my bank sort code etc so they can do a direct transfer if possible. Though he did wonder if it was necessary for it to be paid by cheque so there is a paper trail to prove it was paid. Personally I wouldn't have thought that was necessary as the electronic transfer is safer (lot safer than sending a cheque through the mail I would have thought), but as I've mentioned before I think, we are financially naive and unsophisticated. Which is why I think this chappie is taking advantage - at least that's what it feels like to me. :mad:

sloughflint wrote: »

I don't like the sound of having to wait 28 days for the in house complaint either. Time is of essence.

I will be surprised if we even get a written response - I imagine he thinks after yesterday's chat with husband that all is hunky dory with us again... If so I suspect he's got another think coming. :rolleyes:

sloughflint wrote: »

No you haven't misunderstood how it all works at all. You understand things far better than the solicitor.

Well, I'm never sure how well I've understood stuff - am pretty cognitively challenged as have ME and it takes me ages to get things into my mind... especially when complex and completely alien to me, if you see what I mean!

sloughflint wrote: »

He is talking nonsense about not knowing how long the second spouse would survive.

Actually that wasn't what solicitor said - it was just my guess as to why more people didn't use a DOV. Of course now the IHT rules have changed it will affect fewer people anyway - it wouldn't have affected us if mother had lived another 3 weeks or so. But to be honest I think it was a blessed relief for her so I can't be sad that she went when she did, though sad for how awful it all was for her. She went downhill horribly fast, and life really had become a burden for her I think.

sloughflint wrote: »

What people in your shoes did before the doubling of the IHT allowances was use Discretionary Trusts up to the value of the NRB ( £300 000 in your father's case). Perhaps not necessary here since your mother died so soon after your father.

Please see if there is any way to get shot of this man and not affect your chances of getting a DOV.

We'll see what parents' accountant suggests - will need to contact him when I get home anyway, as need tax advice myself... Or will do if things ever get finished!

sloughflint wrote: »

Finally, as he has overpaid IHT in the region of 120k, surely you could insist on payment pronto rather than wait for further monies to come in.Surely the firm can afford it.:rolleyes:

Hmm, it's only 2 partners, and that's it. So not sure if they can. The other bod does the conveyancing, not sure if he does probate at all. I will be so glad when this is all sorted out - I'm convinced it isn't doing husband's health any good, not to mention all the time it is taking us to try and get things sorted. Poor soul is making lots of phone calls from work. Fortunately his employers are sympathetic over him doing that - it's not a concession he abuses, but there have just been so many calls to make over the last year or so!

Thanks again for your helpfulness and support, and to all the other money savers who have chimed in on this thread. I hope that it may be of use to others - am sure this kind of thing is much more common that I like to think!

:beer:

ukmaggie45

Many thanks sdooley for your contributions to this thread. :A

sdooley wrote: »

There is a national shortage of people working in probate. For a non-taxpaying estate, a local solicitor will charge approximately 25% of the fees of a STEP member and even less in comparison to the banks. There is a place in the market for the bulk probate work, conducted by non-specialists, but professionals must know the limits of their own knowledge and when to seek specialist advice.

I suspect we'd have done better to do it all ourselves, though would not have found about the DOV if we had... Mind you, even not doing it ourselves we nearly didn't find out! Will follow up when (if) have further developments.

As I said in previous post, I hope others in similar situations may find this thread helpful - it's very hard to know where to turn, and it's also hard to find information on subjects (like probate) that you know nothing about and suddenly need to know a lot about!

Thank you again.

:beer:

sloughflint

ukmaggie45 wrote: »

Gosh, sorry if I'm raising your blood pressure. :beer:

I'd never heard of DOV before, but then I've never had to deal with probate before. And I'm not a lawyer. :rolleyes: Well, it's not me that's dealing with it, it's husband, but I do as much finding out of info for him as I can - he's still working full time, so doesn't have the time.

LOL. I've calmed down a bit. I didn't mean you; rather your incompetent 'professional'.
He should have been familiar with the process involved.

Transfer of monies. I meant direct transfer from the client account to your account. I could understand the monies needing to be paid into the solicitor account first.

The profession is in a shambolic state if one has to consider paying STEP fees for basic IHT planning/reduce risk of mistakes.

One might say you've been unlucky and have perhaps picked too small a firm except my experiences have been with larger firms ( yes plural). The laws of probability dictate that there is something very wrong somewhere.