MBNA dispute letter help needed

bert&ernie

James wrote: »

No tease.

Got 2 Visa Credit Cards Identical: (Bog standard Gold Credit Cards).

Same 16 Digit Card Number - Same Valid From and Expiry Dates. Same embossed name. Same details on magstripe (Last 4 figs of 16 Digit Number and 3 Digit CVV Number).

I've used both cards in a Chip only environment within 10 minutes of each other. One at a Craft Shop and the other in Halfords. This can be confirmed by one of the retailers and the card statement showing payments both payments accepted.

Bottom line is if anyone every wants me to produce these cards and prove this in court. I'm willing to do so.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are describing is two separate plastic cards issued quite legitimately i.e. they are genuine cards sent to you by your card issuer?

If this is the case, then I'm still unsure of your point. What do you think this proves? It certainly doesn't prove that its possible to clone a card - simply that the issuer can send you duplicates from its legitimate personalisation plant.

In any case, I dispute your claim that the cards are chip clones. All you describe are the visual personalisation marks e.g. the embossing. Despite the fact that you state the same details are on the magstripe, I believe you mean signature stripe. You don't actually describe reading the magstripe or the chip itself. If you do this, I believe you will find that the card sequence number is different - this allows additional cards to be issued on the same PAN.

I can think of a couple of example scenarios for how you might come across two cards like this:

• Additional User with same emboss name
• Rush/emergency card replacement - some systems allow plastics to be issued without going through the full issuance process i.e. calculating expiry date and ccv2 etc
• Error by the issuer

To summarise, I don't think you have stumbled across some piece of dynamite evidence that implicates the entire card industry in a conspiracy to defraud customers. Instead, you have simply revealed a perfectly innocent quirk of the credit card issuance process.

bert&ernie

To the OP:

Good luck in your action against MBNA. Stick to the facts of your case - there is nothing to be gained by slinging mud against their employees or citing second hand evidence of card cloning.

Rather that trying to prove that cards can be cloned, concentrate on making MBNA prove that the card wasn't cloned. The system for dealing with these types of dispute is flawed and they probably wont let it get far enough to expose these flaws.

James

bert&ernie wrote: »

o summarise, I don't think you have stumbled across some piece of dynamite evidence that implicates the entire card industry in a conspiracy to defraud customers. Instead, you have simply revealed a perfectly innocent quirk of the credit card issuance process.

You're right. I've not stumbled across a piece of dynamite evidence that implicates the card industry in a conspiracy to defraud customers.

What I have stumbled across though is 100% evidential proof that you can get identical chipped cards, (how is irrelevant), and these cards can be used to make face-to-face payments in Chip compliant shops.

If I'd wanted I could have created havoc but that would have been plain silly.

bert&ernie

James wrote: »

You're right. I've not stumbled across a piece of dynamite evidence that implicates the card industry in a conspiracy to defraud customers.

What I have stumbled across though is 100% evidential proof that you can get identical chipped cards, (how is irrelevant), and these cards can be used to make face-to-face payments in Chip compliant shops.

If I'd wanted I could have created havoc but that would have been plain silly.

Oh here we go. Its long been obvious that you are obsessed with chip and pin - it now seems that you have become quite delusional. Play havoc indeed - that did make me chuckle.

Its clear that you either selectively read my previous post or have simply failed to comprehend it. Let me be bunt - you haven't proved that the cards are identical! They appear identical to you - but that doesn't mean they are for the reasons that I have already outlined.

I think you need stop yourself getting carried away. Your enthusiasm seems to be infectious and I'd hate for you to mislead the OP into thinking that you have evidence that could be useful in their case.

James

bert&ernie wrote: »

Its clear that you either selectively read my previous post or have simply failed to comprehend it. Let me be bunt - you haven't proved that the cards are identical! They appear identical to you - but that doesn't mean they are for the reasons that I have already outlined.

.

Believe me the cards are identical in every sense. If they weren't then, the face to face transactions couldn't have been successfully carried out.

In addition to a retail manager, and a hack, I'm sure that the card issuer would confirm them identical too.

MDE

To the OP:

I do hope you haven't posted your draft letter as yet because, being brutally honest it does nothing to support your case.

Use short, factual sentences outlining the details of your case and the actions you understood to have taken so far.

Do not sling mud or make wild accusations. So they used to emply someone who has been implicated in fraud. They USED TO, he has been caught and the problem dealt with.

Do away with the wild use of exclamation marks. It is a formal letter, why use exclamation marks at all.

Have a look here http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.html?p=10519751&postcount=6 for a letter I wrote to MBNA regarding an increase in my interest rate. Note it is short, factual and outlines my expectations. It was successful in securing a review and subsequent lowering of my interest rate.

I hope this is helpful.

bert&ernie

James wrote: »

Believe me the cards are identical in every sense. If they weren't then, the face to face transactions couldn't have been successfully carried out.

In addition to a retail manager, and a hack, I'm sure that the card issuer would confirm them identical too.

Thats it - you keep telling yourself it true.

So far all you have described is two cards that look the same and can be used to make transactions on the same account. Quite simply, this doesn't prove your assertion that the cards are identical.

For my benefit, and that of the thread, can you please explain a few things:

1. How did you obtain the cards? (you say this is irrelevant - please let the rest of us be the judge of that)
2. Have you read the details encoded on the chip or the magstripe?
3. Has anyone independently verified your claim that the cards are identical?

MDE

James wrote: »

In addition to a retail manager, and a hack...

Sorry to be stupid/ difficult but retail managers aren't generally hugely qualified and it isn't the best paid job in the world so doesn't generally attract the best, and what do you mean by "a hack".

Also how could the retail manager verify the card was identical? Can he actually read the details contained in the chip? Because if he can then your PIN is stored in that chip, encyrpted in some way, and if anyone with access to a shop till can read out PIN's then we'd better all start using cash all the time.

James

Both cards had their Chip authenticated in Chip (& PIN) reading terminals and transactions were carried out with both cards.

Magstrips were never swiped.Transactions were carried out and confimed in a monthly statement.

I find it hard to believe some contributors to this forum disbelieve me.

MDE

James wrote: »

Both cards had their Chip authenticated in Chip (& PIN) reading terminals and transactions were carried out with both cards.

Magstrips were never swiped.Transactions were carried out and confimed in a monthly statement.

I find it hard to believe some contributors to this forum disbelieve me.

James,

What are have are two cards issued against the same account. For example, I have a Virgin Card, I could phone them now and request a second card for the account to give to my partner. Their spending would then show on my account.

However, there will be something different in the chips- so Virgin (MBNA) could tell me which spending had occured on which card if I had a reason to find out.

2 cards issued against the same account is different to 2 identical cards.