Braking with the gears what ridiculous practice

N1ckR

RoSPA and IAM do teach engine braking for car drivers, its even mentioned on both their websites in some pdf's somewhere.

Brake lights - if using engine braking - you can lightly touch the brake pedal to get the brake lights on.

Has anyone any evidence that engine braking causes abnormal wear on the engine/transmission modern road cars?

PPP Lasers - When traction is lost corner when engine braking you are most likely to understeer with a FWD car and oversteer with a RWD car.

I use a combination of engine braking AND pedal braking to slow my car down - engine braking for steady deceleration and pedal for fine control and/or harder unplanned deceleration.

Lots of road users seem to be unable to slow a modern ABS equipped car down safely smoothly (I wonder how much of that is to do with lack of anticipation and safe distances, but that's another topic), I would not like to confuse them with engine braking !

Cheers, Nick.

pault123

N1ckR wrote: »

I use a combination of engine braking AND pedal braking to slow my car down - engine braking for steady deceleration and pedal for fine control and/or harder unplanned deceleration.


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Hi Nick that sounds like the correct way to do it. Do you actually change down when the engine is ready for steady deceleration or use the gears to scrub off speed a la youtube vid a few pages back?

Pew_Pew_Pew_Lasers!

N1ckR wrote: »

RoSPA and IAM do teach engine braking for car drivers, its even mentioned on both their websites in some pdf's somewhere.

It is taught as a method of stabilising the vehicle through corners, holding the car in a particular gear to select a speed, etc. Not as a means of slowing the vehicle to a stop.

N1ckR wrote: »

PPP Lasers - When traction is lost corner when engine braking you are most likely to understeer with a FWD car and oversteer with a RWD car.

And when somebody changes gear mid corner to effect engine braking a FWD will be more likely to lose traction at the rear than at the front.

N1ckR wrote: »

use a combination of engine braking AND pedal braking to slow my car down - engine braking for steady deceleration and pedal for fine control and/or harder unplanned deceleration.

Nothing wrong with that, but what is being discussed is using the engine and gears to slow the car to a halt.

N1ckR

pault123 wrote: »

Hi Nick that sounds like the correct way to do it. Do you actually change down when the engine is ready for steady deceleration or use the gears to scrub off speed a la youtube vid a few pages back?

I am not an expert, so it may not be the official "correct" way.
I prefer to use the gears like Tom's video, in a petrol car (can't comment on a Derv). I would only shift down as aggressively if I was driving to make "Good progress".

If I need to say slow from 40 to 30, I will shift from 5th to 4th and use entirely engine braking if I can. If I need to slow faster, I probably would use the brakes rather than utilising a lower gear.
If I was slowing 40-30 and going down a hill I might use 3rd instead of 4th and use the brakes as well, I could use 2nd but for general day to day driving the engine noise would annoy me and family.

Cheers, Nick.

N1ckR

Pew_Pew_Pew_Lasers! wrote: »

It is taught as a method of stabilising the vehicle through corners, holding the car in a particular gear to select a speed, etc. Not as a means of slowing the vehicle to a stop.

FYI I was told (by a RoSPA Bronze qualifed driver that I used to know) not to shift during braking, but did not have to depress the clutch straight away (eg could utilise SOME engine braking in current gear). Also that you can shift down in anticipation of hazards, eg traffic lights, not reacting to.

Pew_Pew_Pew_Lasers! wrote: »

And when somebody changes gear mid corner to effect engine braking a FWD will be more likely to lose traction at the rear than at the front.

I do agree - shifting mid-corner could cause enough weight shift to unload the rear.
But I would not shift gear mid corner as I would want both hands on the steering wheel (not doing too many things at once).
Not quite sure why you suggest someone does that ?

Pew_Pew_Pew_Lasers! wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that, but what is being discussed is using the engine and gears to slow the car to a halt.

Yeah, I was just illustrating where I do use engine braking - for planned steady deceleration, not to react to a change in road conditions/hazards .

Cheers, Nick

N1ckR

tomstickland wrote: »

I observed myself today and found that on a 50mph stop I did the following:
5th-4th-3rd with very little drop in speed because I matched the revs up
in 3rd gear I then did 90% of the slowing using the brakes.
Changed down to 2nd at about 20mph, rolled to junction and pulled out.

Sounds like a similar manner to how I would slow down.
Tom, when you changed down to 2nd, had you finished the majority of engine braking ?

Cheers, Nick.

PS, are you tomstickland.co.uk ?
I remember looking at that site years ago when I was into hot hatches (205 GTis)?

redux

Part of the reasoning to change down a couple of times going towards variable obstacles like traffic lights and roundabouts is anticipation - to already have the right gear and engine speed to accelerate when they turn green or have a gap.

In other words, I could rumble up to a light about to turn green in the next few seconds at 28 mph in 5th and 1000 rpm, but I'd rather have 1700 rpm in 3rd, and if this was in for example a 40 mph limit I might use the engine to slow down just before that.

A couple of days ago, towing a reasonably heavy trailer and going downhill with winding bends in Devon, I was in 2nd gear with about 2500-3000 rpm and braked gently for about 1.5 seconds each at 2 sharper bends. The car in front had its brake lights on almost continuously for over a minute and a half, from top to bottom of the hill, was getting further ahead of me, and I suspect from the panicky flashing at the roundabout near the bottom that it was starting to get brake fade.

Andy_Hamilton

Anticipation is more important than anything else. If I was a police officer I would hand out points to any driver who brakes 4 times when tailgating too much. That style of driving can be more MSE being in the slipstream etc but is just plainly unsafe.

tomstickland

N1ckR wrote: »

Sounds like a similar manner to how I would slow down.
Tom, when you changed down to 2nd, had you finished the majority of engine braking ?

Cheers, Nick.

PS, are you tomstickland.co.uk ?
I remember looking at that site years ago when I was into hot hatches (205 GTis)?

Yes, most braking finished by the time changed to 2nd.
ie: 5-4-3 very little drop in speed.
3rd gear with most braking.
Then into 2nd.

(This is what I normally do, the video showd the more "active" method).

Yes, I'm the same Tom as tomstickland website.

Pew_Pew_Pew_Lasers!

N1ckR wrote: »

I do agree - shifting mid-corner could cause enough weight shift to unload the rear.
But I would not shift gear mid corner as I would want both hands on the steering wheel (not doing too many things at once).
Not quite sure why you suggest someone does that ?

Because it is exactly what is being discussed here, and you have thankfully emphasised my reasoning as to it's danger.

Some people here do not appear to appreciate this.