Rented - who is responsible for gutters & hedges

pastmybest

I paid for the conifers at the bottom of the garden to be trimmed a couple of years ago but they badly need doing am I (as the tenant) responsible?

The hedge, to one side, needs a good trim and thorn bushes (weeds) need to be cut back do I need to get this done?

Lastly I have paid before to get the guttering cleaned out as every time I mention to the LA they never arrange. Should they/the LL arrange and pay for?

poppysarah

Gardening is probably the tenants.

Guttering shouldn't need clearing out very often but I suspect that's the landlords job.

Get some hedge cutters and do the trees (Don't balance on top of ladders to do it though)

Premier_2

What does your TA say?

Many specify that the tenant is responsible for maintaining the garden and to keep gutters & downpipes clear of leaves etc.

If necessary the LA/LL may arrange to have the work carried out for you and send you the bill - but it would probably be cheaper for you to employ your own workmen if you can't do the work yourself.

tbs624

Trimming back the sides of hedges is generally a tenant responsibility - most TAs require a tenant to maintain the garden to a similar standard as was provided at the start of the tenancy.

If you are talking about topping the height of fast-growing conifers or major work to any other tree then I would view that as a LLs responsibility: most decent LLs would have a gardener contracted to do such work.

Gutters are the LLs responsibility - they fall under S11 (1) (a) of the Landlord & Tenant Act which obligates the LL to maintain the structure of the building. Some LLs may try including a tenancy term that states otherwise: always put requests for this sort of work to be dealt with in writing. You are then covered as you have behaved in what in LL &T legal -speak is called "a tenant-like manner" by drawing the LAs/LLs attention to a repairs/maintenance issue that could cause the property to deteriorate. It also means you have a paper trail if the work remains unattended to and damp becomes a problem.

Premier_2

tbs624 wrote: »

Trimming back the sides of hedges is generally a tenant responsibility - most TAs require a tenant to maintain the garden to a similar standard as was provided at the start of the tenancy.

If you are talking about topping the height of fast-growing conifers or major work to any other tree then I would view that as a LLs responsibility: most decent LLs would have a gardener contracted to do such work.

Gutters are the LLs responsibility - they fall under S11 (1) (a) of the Landlord & Tenant Act which obligates the LL to maintain the structure of the building. Some LLs may try including a tenancy term that states otherwise: always put requests for this sort of work to be dealt with in writing. You are then covered as you have behaved in what in LL &T legal -speak is called "a tenant-like manner" by drawing the LAs/LLs attention to a repairs/maintenance issue that could cause the property to deteriorate. It also means you have a paper trail if the work remains unattended to and damp becomes a problem.

What this act actually states is:

1) In a lease to which this section applies (as to which, see sections 13 and 14) there is implied a covenant by thelessor -

(a) to keep in repair the structure and exterior of the dwelling-house (including drains, gutters and external pipes),

This is not about keeping them in a good state of repair, but about ensuring they do not become blocked by leaves, etc.

tbs624

Premier - I have to disagree with you on this one.

A tenant can only be required to keep drains and pipes clear of blockages that are caused by his own actions. Leaves are not generally sprinkled into the gutters by a tenant, unless maybe s/he is trying to get rid of some dodgy plant from an attic window prior to a visit from plod.

Keeping gutters free of leaves is easily solved by a LL using gutter guards and seeing to it as part of regular maintenance checks to prevent any possible deterioration of the structure. They are obligated to ensure that all rainwater goods are in good condition and it can form part of the same check. Allowing a build up of leaves may cause gutters to distort, leak,overflow etc and therefore this comes under keeping them in good order.

It may possibly be a reasonable gesture for a tenant to remove a few leaves from the easily reached guttering of a single storey extension, but as a general obligation, nope IMO. This is just one of those things that LLs have had in TAs for years, in the same way that they suggest that a tenant should clean outside windows, including those that are difficult to access & require ladderwork before returning a property to the LL.

Premier_2

Looks like we'll have to disagree then. The LL is only required under statute to keep in repair the gutters & downpipes - not to keep them clear of leaves etc

How many residential properties do you see with gutter guards in place?

The tenant allowing the gutters to become damaged due to their failure to keep them clear of leaves etc, could result in extra costs for the tenant.

The solution lies within the TA. Does this state it is the responsibility of the tenant to keep the gutters & downpipes clear of leaves etc? If so, and remembering the tenant agreed to abide by all the terms of the TA when they signed it, the tenant is responsible.

Just like the cleaning of windows, there is no obligation on that the tenant physically does the work themselves, just that they are responsible. So they can either do it themselves, arrange for it to be done by someone else, or expect a charge if the LA/LL has to arrange to do the work.

tbs624

Premier wrote: »

.....How many residential properties do you see with gutter guards in place?

Strange argument - the guards are available for just this purpose and are a simple solution.

Premier wrote: »

The tenant allowing the gutters to become damaged due to their failure to keep them clear of leaves etc, could result in extra costs for the tenant.

The solution lies within the TA. Does this state it is the responsibility of the tenant to keep the gutters & downpipes clear of leaves etc? If so, and remembering the tenant agreed to abide by all the terms of the TA when they signed it, the tenant is responsible.

.

Let’s remember that a LL cannot seek to use clauses that he inserts into his TAs to offload *any* part of his own responsibilities for the building onto the tenant.

Failing to paint the render of an outside wall could cause damp; failing to paint window frames could cause rot and ensuing dampness.

Painting is not a repair but it does form part of keeping windows/walls in good repair.

Ditto IMO leaf removal from gutters forms part of the LLs obligation to keep rainwater goods in good order.

We're also back into the realms of Unfair Contract Terms on the window cleaning issues: this one has been covered by the OFT.

mlz1413

Must admit keeping gutters clear has not been a major issue in my 20 years of house ownership as it's something that doesn't block up easily.

But I will ask a question of a situation I had years ago that I paid to have sorted out, the gutters above the kitchen were over flowing with any amount of rain so got a handyman out to clear the gutter (i didn't own a ladder and to buy one for this single job wasn't feasible) anyway he found a tennis ball stuck in the hole for the down pipe, it must have come from a neighbouring house as it wasn't mine.

If this had happened to a tenant who would pay - not normal maintenance and not through tenant action (willful or not)

Premier_2

tbs624 wrote: »

Strange argument - the guards are available for just this purpose and are a simple solution.


Let’s remember that a LL cannot seek to use clauses that he inserts into his TAs to offload *any* part of his own responsibilities for the building onto the tenant.

Failing to paint the render of an outside wall could cause damp; failing to paint window frames could cause rot and ensuing dampness.

Painting is not a repair but it does form part of keeping windows/walls in good repair.

Ditto IMO leaf removal from gutters forms part of the LLs obligation to keep rainwater goods in good order.

We're also back into the realms of Unfair Contract Terms on the window cleaning issues: this one has been covered by the OFT.

There are lots of things available , but LLs are not under any obligation to provide the majority of them.

The LL is not offloading any of his responsibilities - there is no legal obligation for the LL to keep gutters & downpipes clear of leaves etc that is why it is specifically incuded in TAs to ensure there is no dispute later about it.

Painting of wooden window frames to to protect mositure ingress & rotting (and aides cleaning) - that is required maintenance a LL is expected to be responsible. Cleaning the windows is usually the responsibility of tenants ... are or you going to suggest that LL have to keep windows and other glass in a good state of repair and so LLs should be cleaning them too?

As far as the OFT is concerned about window cleaning:

Unfair term
To have the outside and interior of all windows professionally cleaned.

Way of revising term
The tenant agrees to keep the windows clean.

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft356.pdf

tbs624

Debate is healthy.....

On window cleaning see: p42 http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft674.pdf

“Regulation 5: imposed an onerous obligation on the tenant by requiring tenant to clean the outside of windows.

Revised to clarify that the tenant is only obliged to clean the windows on the inside.”

Whilst you were checking out oft356 there Premier did you also see on p78: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft356.pdf

Transfer of landlord's repairing obligations
Unfair term
The tenant agrees to look after the property and in particular clean, and keep free from obstructions, all drains sanitary apparatus waste pipes and ducts belonging to, or forming part of, or which serve the property and in addition, where the property is a house, the gutters and sewers; and to keep the landlord and all other tenant and occupiers of the building of which the property forms part (if it forms part of a larger building) fully indemnified against his failure to comply with this covenant.

Ways of revising term
Sections 11-14 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 (as amended) apply to the agreement. These require the landlord to keep in repair the structure and exterior of the property and keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the property for the supply of water, gas, electricity, sanitation and for space and water heating.


The tenant agrees not to cause blockage to the drains and pipes gutters and channels in or about the property."

and maybe you’d also like to check p125 at http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft669.pdf

“1(b): potentially allowed the landlord to derogate from his or her repairing duties by providing that the tenant must keep the drains, gutters and pipes at the property clear.

Revised so that it only requires tenant to keep drains and pipes clear of blockages caused by his or her own misuse.”

Yet another LL/LA favourite TA clause is the one requiring tenants to get the chimneys swept - also deemed to be an unfair contract term : oft669/oft674…..