No information being given for extension on the house we are purchasing.

AMILLIONDOLLARS

Debt_Free_Chick wrote: »

Having said that, if the seller is claiming that the extension can support a second storey, if it turns out it cannot, then (as a seller) I might consider some discount, but not to reflect the full cost. After all, the buyer will reap any reward from the new, two-storey extension.

OP has stated that they offered on the assurance that the foundations were strong enough to support the second storey, otherwise she would not have offered in the first place. There are only three ways that it can be proved that the strong foundation are in place

1. The paperwork is found which proves the case
2. A Structural Engineer
3. Buy the property and commence work. This is where your "it turns out it cannot"comes into play If the OP has not got or done 1&2 I would still suggest she renegotiates, she has made her intentions clear to the seller, he should be up front regarding the status of the extention.

It's a buyer's market, so I'd push for as much discount as I could get! and it looks like they are desparate to move to France!!!!!


AMD

PRINCESSKERRY

AMILLIONDOLLARS wrote: »

OP has stated that they offered on the assurance that the foundations were strong enough to support the second storey, otherwise she would not have offered in the first place. There are only three ways that it can be proved that the strong foundation are in place

1. The paperwork is found which proves the case
2. A Structural Engineer
3. Buy the property and commence work. This is where your "it turns out it cannot"comes into play If the OP has not got or done 1&2 I would still suggest she renegotiates, she has made her intentions clear to the seller, he should be up front regarding the status of the extention.

It's a buyer's market, so I'd push for as much discount as I could get! and it looks like they are desparate to move to France!!!!!


AMD

Thankyou everyone for all your responses, it's really good to hear other peoples opinions and has enforced in us we are going about this the right way.

You are right we did only offer on this property as we were told the foundations and ceiling joists are suitable to take a second floor extension. If this had not been the case we would have offered on the house in the next street and built a two storey extension there.
We wont go down the route of underpinning as I know how expensive this can be and as a young family i dont want to add further to our costs.

Today I visited our solicitor, I sat in the reception until she eventually agreed to see me. It is only the second time meeting her in person, but to be honest speaking over the phone is a waste of time as you rarely get to speak to her in person and messages are rarely passed over accurately.
She said she was too busy, then when I told the receptionist it was urgent and I would be pulling out of the sale if I didn't discuss my plans with her she soon came down.
I have advised her of how important the second floor addition is to us and that we want some information over the next few days otherwise we will pull out as our mortgage offer is expiring on the 9th Sept.
I am very worried about leaving enough time for us to get the sale through on the other house that we were interested in if this does fall through before our mortgage offer expires. Also the chances are the FTB and our buyers offers will be expiring before ours too.:eek:
I didn't realise that there could be a extension to your mortgage offer though and may contact NW to see if they would grant us one so that at least will be one less thing to worry about.

The solicitor has advised us that we cannot contact the local council planning department until permission is granted from surrent vendor. If this is denied for any reason we should think carefully about why this would be, likewise if the ermission is granted and we do not find what we are looking for that we have to decide whether we want to take there word or not. If we do decide to take the risk we need to seriously rethink and then negotiate our offer as the house will not be worth what we paid as obviously is has no potential for a second storey.

As far as renting goes, I actually wanted to consider this route but my husband would not budge and is fiercely against the idea. I can accept his opinions and whilst he can see my point of view he does not want to take his foot off the property ladder. For us personally then it would not be worth the strife/ arguments for me to pursue this any further. This house is for our long term future, I cannot see us moving for at least the next ten years and realistically probably not until our sons are grown up and as our youngest is 1 and eldest 2 we are talking about a long period of time.

Doozergirl

Lawyer2B wrote: »

As a residential conveyancer ...

If they say they have the plans arrange an to meet and view them.

Alternately go down to the local planning/building control office and ask to see the documents. If your solicitor has done the local search it may contain reference numbers to assist you.

Lawyer2B wrote: »

If all else fails get the seller to provide indemnity insurance for the lack of pp/br.

As a conveyancer, you do know that contacting the Local Authority directly about the property would render any indemnity policy completely void?

It's also my understanding that whilst you can view Planning Applications, you can't view details relating to Building Control which is the only place that evidence of the existing structure would be contained. The vendors would have to do it.

PRINCESSKERRY

Doozergirl wrote: »

You can argue the toss on the items they said they were leaving if you want. I'd take it up with the EA and tell them that those items were a condition of your offer. This isn't the sort of market for vendors to be arguing over white goods.

The extensions carried two issues. One is whether it conforms to building regulations in force at the time it was built. This is something that *might* be an issue for a lender, but my stock answer to this, as it is 15 years old, is that if your surveyor is happy that it is sound, there is nothing to worry about. There is no hope of building control enforcing anything but you can request that they purchase an indemnity policy to cover you in case they ever did. As it would be their money, I'd let them spend it. I wouldn't purchase one for myself as Building Control have to get a court oreder to do anything once a building is 12 months old. If it is 15 years old, it's fairly obvious that the structure is not dangerous. As far as I am aware, the solicitor does not *need* to inform the mortgage company, the indemnity policy would bypass this.

As for the bit about the foundations and joists being in place for a second storey then if they can't produce the documentation to support this then you might request that they pay for or go halves on a structural engineer to check what exists. It will involve some invasive examinations behind plaster and under the ground but if this is what you need then they will have to provide something.

Thankyou for your comments Doozergirl, obviously the extension is our biggest worry but as you mentioned the white goods I thought I should comment further.
We actually bought a new dishwasher only a month or so ago, so were not particularly worried about that. But the freezer would have been good for the garage, and likewise the washing machine was better then ours and though the tumble drier is not it is larger then ours so we would have kept theres as would not want us looking out of place in the hole left.
The vendor said on our last visit that the washing machine has died a death, but all the other goods were still fine. To be honest I do not believe a word they say, they seem to be twisting the truth about a few things, so my gut feeling is that it is still working but they have already moved it. They currently have a ''borrowed'' machine.
Likewise they also have a garden pond and were advising us of all the fish they were leaving behind, and knowing that we have two young children they asked what we intended to do to make it safe. I said I would probably close it over, and my FIL who was there said if that was the case could he have the fish jokingly.
According to the fixtures and fittings list the vendors are now taking all fish.:D
Honestly they are taking all curtain poles, and probably all light switches, taps and door handles if they could. They have also tried to sell us there surround sound system that looks like it is from the 80's. When I politely declined, he advised he would have to rip the carpet up then as the wires were under the carpet chiselled in the floor.
I politely advised him if that was the case so long as the front room was left the way I had viewed it there would be no problems, guaranteed I said this through gritted teeth.

Why people have to be so off I dont know, you would think I was killing him not buying his house.

Doozergirl

Princess Kerry, you really need to speak directly to the vendors. This is quite a straightforward situation that I think can be made more complicated by using solicitors to discuss. It's fine if answers come promptly but if you are running out of time, I'd go direct for a direct answer. Otherwise, if there is an issue, you end up being fed fudge.

You need to ask them if they know where their planning and building regulation documents are. You don't need to be confrontational, just tell them that your solicitor hasn't forwarded them yet

If they don't have copies then you can tell them that (from my LA anyway) it costs 10p for a copy of Building Control Approval. I think though, that even if they have BCA then they are going to have to either ask for confirmation from Building Control (by referring to their notes) that the joists and foundations are sufficient for a second storey.

Out if interest, ask them if they know what depth the foundations are and what size joists they put in the roof.

If they didn't get approval then you just need to ask them outright for them to pay for you to have it proven.

BTW, an estate agent should not be advertsing something like the potential second storey if it isn't true. If you were to buy the property and their claims turned out false, you'd have a very good case for suing the EAs !!!!! The Property Misdescriptions Act simply doesn't allow for hearsay.

And lastly, I never see the need for words along the lines of "or I'll pull out". It's the easiest way of getting people's backs up. You simply make clear, concise demands of the other party and set deadlines for them. You don't need to threaten to pull out. If you are asking clearly for something, everyone is aware that the point is important to you and everyone knows what the consequence of not satisfying that point is. Don't labour it.

PRINCESSKERRY

Also just to clarify the extension was built according to building regulations but as it was smaller then 15% of the house it needed no planning permission at the time.
Strange as the vendor told me it did have planning permission, but then may have got confused.
Our solicitor advised us to take out the insurance others have mentioned on the extension. I felt we shouldn't be footing this cost but the vendors.
Also as far as getting planning permission for the extension goes, there are many houses in the road and neighbouring roads who have completed two storey extensions and this house is a corner plot, the adjoining corner has a two storey extension so I dont really see futrue planning permission being a problem.
I am going to contact my estate agent tommorow and update them with whats going on, they were aware of the situation last week but have not got back to me. I will lay it on the line and tell them we will be pulling out if we dont see some proof soon.

Likewise we were also thinking about rearranging another viewing and therefore we could face the vendors ourselves. It may turn out it is the solicitors not passing on info and this may be a way around it.

PRINCESSKERRY

Doozergirl wrote: »

Princess Kerry, you really need to speak directly to the vendors. This is quite a straightforward situation that I think can be made more complicated by using solicitors to discuss. It's fine if answers come promptly but if you are running out of time, I'd go direct for a direct answer. Otherwise, if there is an issue, you end up being fed fudge.

You need to ask them if they know where their planning and building regulation documents are. You don't need to be confrontational, just tell them that your solicitor hasn't forwarded them yet

If they don't have copies then you can tell them that (from my LA anyway) it costs 10p for a copy of Building Control Approval. I think though, that even if they have BCA then they are going to have to either ask for confirmation from Building Control (by referring to their notes) that the joists and foundations are sufficient for a second storey.

Out if interest, ask them if they know what depth the foundations are and what size joists they put in the roof.

If they didn't get approval then you just need to ask them outright for them to pay for you to have it proven.

BTW, an estate agent should not be advertsing something like the potential second storey if it isn't true. If you were to buy the property and their claims turned out false, you'd have a very good case for suing the EAs !!!!! The Property Misdescriptions Act simply doesn't allow for hearsay.

And lastly, I never see the need for words along the lines of "or I'll pull out". It's the easiest way of getting people's backs up. You simply make clear, concise demands of the other party and set deadlines for them. You don't need to threaten to pull out. If you are asking clearly for something, everyone is aware that the point is important to you and everyone knows what the consequence of not satisfying that point is. Don't labour it.

Thankyou Doozergirl, I was writing at the same time as you.

I didn't think of it like that and after listening to everyones (families) tuppance worth I just wanted something to happen, hence laying it on with the solicitor about the option of us pulling out. This hasn't been relayed to the vendor yet.
We are thinking facing the vendors ourselves would be a good course of action, please dont assume it is us being difficult. We get on incredibly well with the couple purchasing our property but I feel the people we are buying from are actually quite bitter about having to sell. I dont think it would matter who we were they would not be happy with it. It seems they have money difficulties so it's a case of must move rather then perhaps really want too.
They have mentioned several times about children next door and a dog, and I think this is also a attempt at putting us off. This is all coming from the gentleman by the way, the lady is actually fairly nice.

Also where you say the estate agent should not be advertising this if it is incorrect, I'm not sure if they have covered themselves with there wording.
The description actually state we are advised the extension was built with building regulations approval and then having specification including foundations and ceiling joists designed to take a second floor addition.
On the website it is worded a little differently with just foundations and ceiling joists designed to take a second floor.
Likewise the agent also advertised the property as vacatn possession though this was never the case, I was informed by them afterwards they just meant there was no onward chain.

Doozergirl

I don't think you're being difficult at all. It should not be presented one way and sold another.

I know of people who have claimed money back from an EA for misdescribing the number of plug sockets in a house! I appreciate that you wouldn't want to buy it anyway if it weren't capable of holding it; but if they are mentioning that the joists and ceilings are a cetain way without proof then they shouldn't be doing it.

You might want to establish whether they actually want to sell this house. If you are getting the feeling that they don't, then you'd be better knowing for sure than being dragged along for even longer.

waggys

Can I just ask if you realise the amount of upheaval that you will still be affected with by building the second storey? Obvously the roof will have to come off in order for the walls to be extended upwards etc and you will not be able to use that room during the building works. Also have you considered if it can realistically be kept weathertight during building works - ie the inside of the room may get damaged by rainwater and indeed the building works. Having previously built over an existing extension and started from scratch; I know which one I would rather be doing (and it isn't the option you are choosing)>

PRINCESSKERRY

Doozergirl wrote: »

I don't think you're being difficult at all. It should not be presented one way and sold another.

I know of people who have claimed money back from an EA for misdescribing the number of plug sockets in a house! I appreciate that you wouldn't want to buy it anyway if it weren't capable of holding it; but if they are mentioning that the joists and ceilings are a cetain way without proof then they shouldn't be doing it.

You might want to establish whether they actually want to sell this house. If you are getting the feeling that they don't, then you'd be better knowing for sure than being dragged along for even longer.

Thankyou again Doozergirl.

In the house information they have included the disclaimer notice Property Misdescriptions Act 1991, so I assumed they had covered there back by doing that but what you have said is interesting to know.

A bit more info today, I called our estate agent and advised them what was going on. I told them it may be something silly like solicitors not asking the right info etc so could we have another viewing of the house and we will have a chat to the vendors.
Our agents asked to call us back and in the meantime called the vendors solicitors and the vendor themselves.
It seems the vendor is really keen to move still and is hoping to work towards a completition date of August 11th, despite not responding to the queries surrounding the white goods or extension yet. It also seems that our agents may have been passing on wrong info and asking for planning permission for the extension whereas in fact we are wanting to see some evidence of the joists and foundations.
The vendor is a draftsman and therefore drew up his own plans though they have not been signed by anyone and are his own ''messy'' copies. It seems like there will be no evidence they can show us at all. Though the vendor has said they are happy for someone to come out from the council to inspect the extension to prove the foundations and ceiling joists are adequate.
Our agent feels like this should be down at cost to ourselves which I strongly feel should not be the case. I have layed it on the line and asked her would she pay 200k for a house and take someones word for it that they could extend only then to find out you couldn't but the vendors have left the country.
There is no way the vendors would get anywhere near the price we have paid for the house, firstly they had no one interested enough to make a single offer in over 7 months and secondly if another buyer is interested in purchasing and like us wants to extend they are going to have to fork out money to check that what the vendor is saying is true.

Do you think this is right, that we should be paying for a building inspector to come in and check the foundations etc. The way I loook at it is that they shouldn't be selling the house with these specifications as they hae no evidence to support it.

Our solicitor has suggested asking someone to give us a quote to underpin and then ask for that amount off the price we are paying.
I just wish things were simple, I am very worried that we will lose our buyers with the time it will take if we pull out of this sale and purchase another house but at the same time dont know whether to accept the situation the way it is.
The vendors are very stubborn as far as it comes to price and I dont think they would probably take a drop in price so that may determine it anyway. I quoted to the agent there own paragraph in the property misdescriptions where it says the agent has not tested any equipment, fixtures or services and as so does not verify they are in working order, fit for their purpose, or within ownership of the sellers therefore the buyer must assume the information is incorrect.
Therefore surely I should assume the ceiling joists and foundations are not adequate unless I see proof.