No information being given for extension on the house we are purchasing.

PRINCESSKERRY

Hello

Firstly any information / help would be appreciated.

As some of you know we have sold our property and are almost nearing completition, the only hold up is the end of the chain, i.e. the house we are purchasing.
The house we are hoping to buy has a single storey extension, which according to the sales details and the vendor (and his so called folder of information), has had foundations and ceiling joists designed to take a second floor addition.
It fell between this house and one in a neighbouring street, which has a conservatory instead of an extension but was in much beautiful condition internally, compared to very old fashioned decor and avocado bathroom suites in the other.
Both houses are not large enough for us at the current time and will need an extension to make a 4th bed as the 3rd is so so small. Therefore the corner plot with extension won over all.
Our problem is now we have requested some information regarding the extension as vendor had been forthcoming saying he had all plans, pics, building regulation info relating to the extension.
Since the start of July it seems that his solicitors are not retuning any information, the vendors have always know first hand that the reason we are buying there house is because the foundations / ceiling joists are there. We would have not offered on the house if that hadn't been the case.
Our solicitors have now said because they cannot / haven't produced any info that they need to write to our bank to advise of this as lendors may see this as extra risk.
But our problem is we do not particularly like or trust the vendors (a bit slimy when meeting and very pushy) and it seems we are going to have to take their word that these measures are in place. Something we are not happy doing.
The vendors are moving to France so there may be little comeback afterwards if everything is not quite so.
Likewise the builder that carried out the extension is a close friend, and will be travelling to France with them to help them to source properties.
Now alarm bells are ringing as firstly why are they not producing the relevant documents, and secondly the builder is a friend so has everything been done above board, and also surely as the builder is a friend they could get some information regarding the extension.
The extension was built in 1993 so not particularly old.

Our mortgage offer is expiring 9th Sept and we are now worried we are being left with so little time to start proceedings on the other house and complete if this one falls through. We would not be best pleased as we would not be able to touch this rate now with anyone else.

Any advice would be greatly welcomed as at present we dont want to assume the worst but am not sure what to think.

Also though not a big concern but in all sales information and in communication with the vendors they were leaving the washing machine, freezer, dishwasher and tumble drier. When receiving all the paperwork regarding fixtures and fittings they have went back on their word and are taking everything.
We are not particularly bothered about most of the above except tumble drier (but have bought it up as a query as there tumble drier is larger then ours and therefore would have a gap in kitchen) but just shows what type of people they are as these were classed as some of the main features of the sale.

Doozergirl

You can argue the toss on the items they said they were leaving if you want. I'd take it up with the EA and tell them that those items were a condition of your offer. This isn't the sort of market for vendors to be arguing over white goods.

The extensions carried two issues. One is whether it conforms to building regulations in force at the time it was built. This is something that *might* be an issue for a lender, but my stock answer to this, as it is 15 years old, is that if your surveyor is happy that it is sound, there is nothing to worry about. There is no hope of building control enforcing anything but you can request that they purchase an indemnity policy to cover you in case they ever did. As it would be their money, I'd let them spend it. I wouldn't purchase one for myself as Building Control have to get a court oreder to do anything once a building is 12 months old. If it is 15 years old, it's fairly obvious that the structure is not dangerous. As far as I am aware, the solicitor does not *need* to inform the mortgage company, the indemnity policy would bypass this.

As for the bit about the foundations and joists being in place for a second storey then if they can't produce the documentation to support this then you might request that they pay for or go halves on a structural engineer to check what exists. It will involve some invasive examinations behind plaster and under the ground but if this is what you need then they will have to provide something.

huntersc

First, don't worry about being left behind. Don't get stuck with something just because it seemed convenient. You can always rent and my guess is that you'll probably save money doing so and in 6 months pick up a nice bargain if the market continues on it's downward spiral.

Second, don't take the vendor's word for anything. If you need to build then you need to know for sure that the current structure can support it. You could hire a structural engineer and for a reasonable fee they could give you an idea but it'll cost a LOT more for them to confirm anything for definite.

Like you, alarm bells are ringing for me. It all seems a little suspect.

If it were me I would reduce my offer until the correct documentation was sent to my solicitor. Drop the offer by 20%. You're the buyer, you're in a really strong position and see what they do.

1. If they provide the documentation then great.
2. If they still don't respond then that tells you they definitely have something to hide
3. If they do not provide anything and then accept a 20% decrease then quids in

As for the fixtures and fittings, I think the way they have dealt with this confirms that those alarm bells ought to perhaps be ringing a few decibels louder

Good luck!

p.s

I had a very very similar situation a few years ago. I was intent on purchasing a property, had my mortgage arranged at 3.8% (The good 'ol days ) and was raring to go. Then the vendor started being a little less forthcoming with some info about the permission he had for a loft extension. I was very lucky to have a great solicitor who said that I needed to hire an engineer to take a look. It turned out that the roof was collapsing, (it wasn't spotted in the homebuyers) and that they took down a supporting wall without using a correctly sized steel. Fortunately I didn't witness the house falling down as we pulled out pretty darn quickly but it made me very catiious of vendors that don't provide info or become less responsive to info requests.

dander

Just don't forget that buyers are few and far between at the moment and these people are very lucky to have you, so don't be afraid to make sure everything is exactly as you want it with this deal before you proceed. You don't have to take their word for this being as stated at all!

Make it clear to the vendors via your solicitor or the estate agent that this is a deal breaker for you and that without this paperwork, or a structural report you will be pulling out.

If you feel time is of the essence, you could be completely straight with them, say you do not wish to buy this house without the extension being as you were told, say that since the paper work has not been produced, you have no option but to request an inspection by a structural engineer (as doozergirl says) and say that since you are forced to do this you are reducing your offer to pay for it. This would probably mean dropping by £1k or so.

Alternatively, you could just say, that if evidence is not available that the extension is structurally suitable for conversion into 2 storey, you have to work on the assumption that it is not. Then work out what it would cost you to have it strengthened and drop your offer considerably to take this into account.

Do this straight away. It may be that they are just disorganised and when they realise they might lose a sale , the paperwork will magically appear.

Debt_Free_Chick

Re the extension .... it might have conformed to building regs 15 years ago for a second storey, but it might not now. What I'm saying is, the joists and foundations that were satisfactory to take a second storey then, might not pass the test today.

Did your surveyor comment?

silvercar

From a certain date, I don't know when, building regs required that any single storey extension joined to the main property had foundations deep enough to support a second storey.

Don't know if this will trigger someones memory as to when. Worth a check with the council who will know whether at the time of approval, the super strength foundations were necessary.

You could always commission someone to find out. I think you can dig from the outside of the property. You are talking about 1 foot square hole at the surface in a couple of places.

Lawyer2B

As a residential conveyancer ...

First off you CAN speak with the seller directly and you do not have to do this via your solicitor or the selling agent.

If they say they have the plans arrange an to meet and view them.

Alternately go down to the local planning/building control office and ask to see the documents. If your solicitor has done the local search it may contain reference numbers to assist you.

Point to note - time limits for the council to take enforcement action are 10 years for planning and 1 years for building regs.

If all else fails get the seller to provide indemnity insurance for the lack of pp/br. Premium is a few hundred pounds on a sliding scale depending on value of property. Get your solicitor to make it a condition of the contract. This will then cover you on your eventual sale of the property too. Any your lender will be a lot happier with this in place if there is no documentary evidence available. [All the lender is interested in is IF something goes wrong that they can recoup the funds they provided].

Consider if the hassle is worth it. You may face these similar problems when you come to sell.

As the house is your biggest asset then it is worth spending a few hundred pounds on getting a surveyors report, at least then you can make an informed decision if any problems come to light - make a reduced offer or walk away.

With regards to the fixtures and fittings get your solicitor to reconfirm with the sellers. They may well have filled out the paperwork at the outset before even accepting your offer. Any F&F included in the sale need to be listed and attached to the contract to be incorporated as conditions.

If you are concerned about your mortgage offer running out, then approach your lender and ask for an extension of time. Nowadays the time between exchange of contracts and completion is very short (one week) and it is possible for these to occur on the same day.

Good luck.

AMILLIONDOLLARS

Reduce the price you have offered to take into account any work you will need to do, to strengthen the extention for the additional storey. Have you checked with the planning dept that this extra addition will be possible?

Best to do this as well as all the above suggestions.

AMD

poppysarah

They have forward plans (france) and you are just looking for a house to live in.

I'd be annoyed enough to be looking at other properties. And I'd let them know that if information wasn't forthcoming then offer is withdrawn.

If the house needed the extension pulling down and redoing - would you still want the house?

Debt_Free_Chick

AMILLIONDOLLARS wrote: »

Reduce the price you have offered to take into account any work you will need to do, to strengthen the extention for the additional storey.

I'm not sure I would go with this if I were the seller. The property is being sold "as is" so I am selling with a single storey extension. That might have been sufficient to support a second storey at the time, but I am not selling with an extension that will definitely support a second storey now (as I suspect the seller has not checked this out and is not warranting that this is the case). If the buyer wants that, then that is their "wish list" and surely any improvements are at the buyer's option and therefore their cost?

Having said that, if the seller is claiming that the extension can support a second storey, if it turns out it cannot, then (as a seller) I might consider some discount, but not to reflect the full cost. After all, the buyer will reap any reward from the new, two-storey extension.

I'm not saying you're wrong - just that these things are down to negotiation as there is no "right or wrong" price the property, unless it includes PP for the planned work.

Regards

waggys

Phone building control at the local council and ask if it had building regs approval.

If you wish to build a second storey you may have to dig pilot holes for the BCO to determine if they are adequate to take a second storey! Otherwise you may need to underpin it etc. I would suggest an informal chat with building control.