The cost of vets

orlao

wuno wrote: »

I note that the original thread referred to at the start of this poll has now been deleted, so to remind you all what you are voting for, Snowman2 and myself, who run seemingly similar practices did back of an envelope calculations and worked out that for us to be able to reduce our standard markup on drugs to 30% we would have to increase the prices of all professional fees by 7-8%. That's on everything, not just consulting; from cruciate ops to cutting nails.....

And if we were not to increase our markup on outsourced diagnostic tests and cremation (these are another story!), I bet you'd be looking at increasing professional fees by 10%.

I take your point but as more people start to buy online would you not have to anyway??? I know that most of your clients don't but according to my vet the number of people who do are increasing month on month and while your prices are a LOT cheaper than theres,I don't know where you are based and that is probably the reason:D I'm in deepest Essex so nothing is cheap round here.

Maybe it's because us horsey birds have been bulk buying wormers online for years that we have very quickly adapted to online pharmacies but I keep on hearing about people who have done the "right" thing and insured but even with what appears to be huge limits are now running out of cover and starting to notice what appears to be massive price differences between vet surgery med prices and the same product available online. Cocoluvsmummy is just one person who has posted on this thread with this issue.

Can I just also say that I do not expect anyone, especially qualified people who have studied for many years and then actually taken the risk to set up in business to work for nothing.....they deserve every penny they earn and probably a lot more:beer: . I personally do not care if they drive a top of range car or an old banger, live in a caravan or a mansion.....my concern is that I get the best care for my animals at a price that I feel is reasonable.
I realise that that is subjective of course but if a client feels that they are being "ripped off" it is not going to help the business relationship between the practice and customer and, as a result the care of the pet.

I hadn't realised the orignal thread had been deleted so thank you for reminding everyone:T . it's not a vet bashing thread, honestly, I just wondered was I the only one who saw it like this:o

stephvetnurse

I agree that nobody has the excuse now of not knowing about insurance but believe me 15 years ago when I first got my old lady as an unofficial rescue I had never heard of pet insurance that included vet fees cover despite having my horses insured for public liability, theft etc. Vet fee cover was only available for reallllllly valuable horses, if I had tried to cover my £200 hairy cob(priceless to me though) I would have been laughed out of the room;)
IIRC, 5 or so years later E&L:eek: were one of the first into the market with vet cover for pleasure horses and they weren't any better at paying out then they they are now plus your excess was £125 + 15% or something similar so it was still something that was considered quite a luxury.
Not an excuse for my pets not being insured btw, I have since made a decision to self insure as that works best for me but if I only had a couple of younger pets I would probably think differently. I think we all sometimes forget how much and how quickly vetinary (Sp!!!) medicine has moved on in the last decade or so but also consumers in general and the way we all shop for things. We didn't have the choice, information or options that we have now mainly due to the internet and that is why I wonder if the "old business model" has maybe had it's day.......

red_bertie

Why was the original thread deleted?

AFAIR it wasn't offensive or abusive.

For me it has been interesting to read of other people's experiences and opinions and an opportunity to hear the vet's side of the coin. I thought it would have been useful for them to get a straw poll from other MSE'rs too.

wuno

orlao wrote: »

I take your point but as more people start to buy online would you not have to anyway??? I know that most of your clients don't but according to my vet the number of people who do are increasing month on month and while your prices are a LOT cheaper than theres,I don't know where you are based and that is probably the reason:D I'm in deepest Essex so nothing is cheap round here.

Maybe it's because us horsey birds have been bulk buying wormers online for years that we have very quickly adapted to online pharmacies.
<SNIP>

I realise you are not having a go at vets. I am actually quite interested in the outcome of the poll. I agree that if more and more clients do choose to shop for drugs online vets will have to do something. Call it the "tipping point". It's just that we are a long way from there at the moment at my practice.

I sometimes look at the prices other practices charge and am completely shocked by how much they can get away with. It's not just the area. About half a mile away from me there is a similar sized practice, with no better equipment or qualified staff, giving an equivalent quality of care and service, that charge 30% more than we do. For everything - and even more for non-elective ops (where you don't get the chance to shop around). Their overheads are not going to be more than mine (they pay their staff less than I do, their mortgage is considerably less than mine, and their equipment list and practice overheads will be similar). So they are making much more profit. I know that the principal vet has two cars. An old Volvo that she drives to work so clients don't think she's doing too well, and a nice new BMW, which I see her parking outside the beauty salon next to my house! Now I don't blame her for that, but it makes me laugh.

How can they get away with this difference in price. Two things: insurance and convenience. Their practice was purpose built on the main dual carriageway that runs past all the new commuter houses in town. Younger couples both working with a higher disposable income and more likely to get pet insurance see their practice on the way to work and look no further. My practice is 50 years old, based in a coverted Victorian property in the center of a rather run down town and my clients are more likely to be retired or on benefits and insurance is quite uncommon. I would love to get my hands on some of their clients, but will probably need to wait until they run out of money on their insurance policies before cost outweighs convenience.

I started my business not to make money (though that would be a bonus) but to take control of a practice I had worked in as an assistant vet for 10 years. To get right those things that had annoyed me, to improve the quality of care and service offered. I've had to take on a lot of debt, and at the moment, when times are hard (and with a lack of insured clients, economic downturn has a bigger effect) I'm starting to get a bit worried about it. I agree that in business terms, I was a complete innocent when I took the practice on. In hindsight I should not have done so, but looked to start a practice in a more affluant and insurance-savvy neighbourhood. But then who would have cared for the patients I see every day? Many of them on the PDSA pet-aid scheme (since all the other practices in town refused to take part in it as it is not deemed profitable).

And as an owner of 5 horses myself, I can see that shopping around is important. Except I now put everything through the business (don't tell the taxman). Even managed to get a respray on the horse lorry because we put on an advertising logo for the practice and wrote it off in the business accounts as "advertising"....

wuno

red_bertie wrote: »

Why was the original thread deleted?

AFAIR it wasn't offensive or abusive.

For me it has been interesting to read of other people's experiences and opinions and an opportunity to hear the vet's side of the coin. I thought it would have been useful for them to get a straw poll from other MSE'rs too.

It was a rambling thread that started with someone asking for recommendations for flea treatment and wormers. It seems that asking for and giving advice about medical matters is against the rules of MSE so the thread was deleted. As a general policy, its probably fair enough since why should anyone trust what anyone else says online if it could affect the health of them or their pet? I've decided now not to comment when people ask for advice - my general comment is "speak to your vet"!

chartreuse_2

Whoa!, this all seems a little harsh. I understand that you want to defend your profession, but: (a) I'm not attacking it and (b) the "size 9" approach owes more to the problem than to the solution.

If I may, I'll take a few points, one at a time:

wuno wrote: »

If by "bad business model" you mean 50% markup on drugs, so that they tend to subsidise professional fees, then I would say it is not just widespread, but almost universal. And has been so for years.

Just because it's common, doesn't mean that it's right. Or wise. I suspect that most clients believe that they are paying for the vet's profesional services and that any meds are ancilliary to that.

wuno wrote: »

You are in a large minority if you buy prescription drugs online. The vast majority of clients buy from their vet. My view is that the "bad business model" holds out very well, and if it ain't broke, why try and fix it?

Although I didn't actually say that I'd bought prescription drugs online, let's overlook your assumption and move on to the subtext. I'm not entirely sure what a "large minority" is. Is that, like, a majority? Or about half? Or maybe less than half but more than voted for the government? Anyway, you say it's not broken. I say that any business model where the customer believes that they're buying a different thing than that which the vendor believes that they're selling is irredemably broken.

[Off topic stuff edited out because it was, well, off topic.]

I'm really not attacking you, or your profession. I meant what I said earlier about there being caring, decent vets. But thousands quailify every year. They're on a normal distribution. And not everybody can graduate with a starred first.

wuno

Dear Chartreuse,

I'm really sorry if I offended you.

I take your point about the business model not being transparent, but as a business model that keeps practices in business, it works perfectly well. That is what I meant.

Our argument about the RCVS disciplinary committee is not relevant to this thread, and to avoid boring anyone who is reading, I'll just smile and walk away.

Since you allege a deception by the RCVS, I would point out that the "Guild" to which you repeatedly and misteriously refer is almost certainly the British Veterinary Association, not the RCVS. It is the former that exists to protect the interests of vets, and the latter that is there simply as a channel for the Veterinary Surgeons Act to work.

drifter34

i was a vet nurse the prices back in the 80,s where un-real, you can get a script and go too a chemist many things are so plain and easy but vets charge the earth

chartreuse_2

Dear Wuno
Don't worry about it. I'm pretty easy to annoy but quite difficult to offend. And I'm lousy at holding a grudge. If I join you in a smile, perhaps neither of us need walk away?

I agree with you that we were drifting off topic and have edited my previous post to keep it to the point under discussion. All I'll say about the other matter is that I'm fairly sure that I'm not alleging a deception by the RCVS - sorry if I gave you that impression. Shall we drop the subject?

I also agree with you about the differences between practices. One practice near me charges a 100% markup on veterinary diets, while another charges only £3 more per case than the cost (including delivery) from an online supplier. In the latter case, I'm more than happy to support a local practice, whereas the former feels like gouging.

Back on topic. My concerns re subsidising consults via meds are twofold:
1. The lack of transparency - which we've discussed.
2. It risks being a vector for moral hazard. In any group of people there will always be some who are weaker than others...

For me, it's not really about cost. My (uninsured and uninsurable) vet bills and ancilliary expenses are up around £10K so far this year and I'll likely spend the same again before the year's out. I'd spend any amount of money on my baby.

But when what's required is a vet's time and expertise, rather than more meds, the business model we're discussing has the perverse effect of making it more difficult for me to give the vet money and buy what we need.

Ruffles_2

I've read through this thread with interest. Personally, I've never questioned what my vets charge, what there mark ups are etc and I never will. I'm very lucky to have a fantastic vet (granted, its an 80 mile round trip every time I go) that's prices are very reasonable, that have gone above and beyond what I expect of them more than once and above all that I trust. For that, they get my loyalty in terms of my money. There's a vets nearby that charges about 1/2 what my vets charge for a vaccine. Granted, its only a vaccine and I could use the cheaper vets just for boosters but loyalty works both ways. I know that if I take any of my animals to my vets they will do everything they can to help/save the animal. I never put an upper spend limit on how far I'm willing to go with treatment and I know my vets wont abuse it. I don't have insurance- I have a lot of animals. Instead, I put money away to cover my vet bills. I suppose I'm a regular customer. I'm down there pretty much every other week and I've never come out feeling ripped off.

I think if your lucky enough to have a good vet you should support them.

orlao

stephvetnurse wrote: »

I am wondering how many of you would scream and shout and point blank refuse to bring your pets to vets if the consultation fees and surgery fees were hiked up so we could drop the drug prices to compete with the online pharmacies???

.

I think that comment is a bit harsh......

The fact that most of the posters here have noticed the cost of vets and compared prices in surgery and online suggests that they care enough about their pets to have them treated no matter what it costs but would like to do so in the most cost effective way.

The point I have been making all along is that if my pet only needs 2 or 3 consultations p.a for checking purposes ( and I have taken on board what you and others have said about health monitoring and the legal implications for vets) it is not in my interests to buy higher price meds at the surgery when I can save 40% approx online but if I do buy at the vets I'm subsidising the people who rush their animal to the vet at the slightest sniffle.....they benefit from the "subsidised" consultation fee due to the number of visits ( probably no meds except flea/worming) but I "lose" out due to the fact that my cat is healthy except for needing regular medication so who wins when I pay less for a consultation and then the practice makes zero profit on my prescription as I have bought elsewhere.......

IMHO, the people who scream, shout and refuse to bring their pets to vet will do so if a consultation costs more than tuppence hapenny are already out there and always will be.......but I don't like to be compared to them:eek:

Further to the difference in pricing between practices, when my dog was referred for his cruciate ops I asked to go to the Royal Vet College instead of the hospital the practice usually used, not because of price( I didn't know what the bill would be then!) but because I know and have huge confidence in the college I discovered that it would have cost me nearly double the amount of money for the same operation, purely by chance because a friend had a neighbour whose dog had the same op there ....they are only about 20 miles apart so it wasn't location???

That's capitalism for you but you have to wonder how it affects insurance
premiums......

BTW, I am aware of staff costs etc as I work in a service industry where labour is our largest cost closely followed by equipment and legal compliance with various laws and regulation......it's called contract catering......