Contaminated manure warning

Lotus-eater

Nice_Username wrote: »

What a load of rubbish.

The problem originated BECAUSE OF chemical fertilizers. Please don't encourage people to pollute the planet with the stuff even more, based purely on your ignorance.

Everytone should try to be as organic as possible.

What Dave said is technically correct. You do know what you get in chemical fertilisers, you don't know what you get in organic ones, not unless you know the complete chain of inputs (difficult).

I'm very very lucky as I have a source where I do know the complete chain. Not everyone is that lucky.

The problem originated because of a chemical herbicide, not fertilisers.
And Dave isn't ignorant, he knows exactly what he is talking about.

I agree everyone should use as few chemicals as possible, but you have to understand the way it works. "Organic" fertilisers that you make yourself can be unpredictable and you don't know what is in them, chemical fertilisers you know exactly what you get out of them and you get predicable growth from your plants.
Learning to use organic home made fertilisers is a skill in itself.

Davesnave

I see Lotus-eater has arrived here first and said exactly what I meant in the quoted paragraph. Thanks! This was written at a time when I was regularly observing exactly what people were throwing into public green waste collection units, the products of which were subsequently sold as Soil Association approved organic compost. That worried me. I also had in mind the various hormones/medicines given to animals these days, which must also get into their manure, albeit in minute amounts.

The whole thrust of this thread is about the difficulty in tracing the supply chain in the production of some organic fertilizers. As Mr/Ms Nice insists the problem arose because of a chemical fertilizer, rather than a herbicide, which is what aminopyralid is, I'm happy to leave others to judge just who is 'ignorant' here.

I'm also well aware of the problems we face post Peak-Oil when so much of our current food production relies on chemical input, but that is a separate issue.

Since writing the above-quoted comment, I have moved. I was told my land had been farmed on organic principles for at least ten years, and certainly the unbridled weed growth seemed to confirm that. However, much of my time so far has been spent tidying-up behind the last owner, and among his detritus, amounting to many tonnes, inorganic fertilizer bags, weedkiller containers and slug pellet pots have been uncovered. This make me suspicious. There is literally no way for me to know what's gone on, rather like the original story of this thread.

I'm still mulling over the way to go next on the fields, where sheep or hens can come to my assistance, while bulldozers can be used on areas of scrub, but in the garden areas, without glyphosate, I would be hard-pressed to sort out what I inherited anytime soon.

As Helen Yemm said recently in an article I read, 'We all choose our shade of green.' I would be grateful if posters like Mr/Ms Nice would not choose my level of greenness for me and abide by the rules of this site regarding politeness. Rudeness is no substitute for reasoned debate.

~Chameleon~

Seeing as this thread has been resurrected, and on the subject of fertilisers, I wonder if someone could recommend a general purpose fertiliser I could use to give my plants, shubs & trees a boost.

They don't appear to be growing as well as they might, taking the late winter weather conditions into account, and in particular the flowers on a young magnolia tree are fairly sparse compared to when I bought it last year whereas a neighbour's tree is an absolute mass of blooms!

Also, my cherry blossom is very slow to even come into bud but another neighbour's tree is blossoming already!

Davesnave

A whole host of things could be responsible for the disparities in apparent health between your trees and those of of your neighbours, including species, aspect age and their establishment after such a testing winter. If you are comparing, look also at the amount of competition from other plants in both situations.

Building long term soil fertility takes time, so while something like Growmore will give a more immediate boost, blood fish & bone will take longer to act, but maybe benefit the plants more in the long term by its slower release.

There are people that swear by more esoteric things like, say, seaweed extract, but it is a fair bet that most plants aren't getting that, and the majority thrive and do fine. One's own garden compost is also a good soil conditioner, and the actual structure of the soil needs consideration too, not just what chemicals, organic or inorganic, it contains.

I suppose that's a long winded answer that says I'd prefer to use an organic fertilizer over an extended period with trees & shrubs, as their care is quite different from that related to flowers or many vegetables.

Anyone else?

RHYSDAD

kippers wrote: »

I'm sure i read somewhere that the goverment once again now allows the sale of this awful chemical provided it is made clear that it is not to be used or by-products used where crops are grown...some help this is as we all know it will find its way into our manure

The trouble with aminopyralid is that is does a fantastically good job of killing docks/thistles/nettles in Agricultural grassland. That's the reason it's coming back....
You won't find a farmer using a more expensive, less effective chemical (as is the case at the moment) if he has aminopyralid to fall back on....

Lotus-eater

~Chameleon~ wrote: »

Seeing as this thread has been resurrected, and on the subject of fertilisers, I wonder if someone could recommend a general purpose fertiliser I could use to give my plants, shubs & trees a boost.

They don't appear to be growing as well as they might, taking the late winter weather conditions into account, and in particular the flowers on a young magnolia tree are fairly sparse compared to when I bought it last year whereas a neighbour's tree is an absolute mass of blooms!

Also, my cherry blossom is very slow to even come into bud but another neighbour's tree is blossoming already!

Davesnave wrote: »

A whole host of things could be responsible for the disparities in apparent health between your trees and those of of your neighbours, including species, aspect age and their establishment after such a testing winter. If you are comparing, look also at the amount of competition from other plants in both situations.

Building long term soil fertility takes time, so while something like Growmore will give a more immediate boost, blood fish & bone will take longer to act, but maybe benefit the plants more in the long term by its slower release.

There are people that swear by more esoteric things like, say, seaweed extract, but it is a fair bet that most plants aren't getting that, and the majority thrive and do fine. One's own garden compost is also a good soil conditioner, and the actual structure of the soil needs consideration too, not just what chemicals, organic or inorganic, it contains.

I suppose that's a long winded answer that says I'd prefer to use an organic fertilizer over an extended period with trees & shrubs, as their care is quite different from that related to flowers or many vegetables.

Anyone else?

Esoteric, great word Dave, can you really get esoteric fertilisers?

As Dave says, it could really be anything, local (as in garden) climate makes a huge difference to things like this and can vary between two gardens next to each other, just because of a wall or a hedge, or a tree.

I don't feed established trees, but fruit bushes I give fish blood and bone and wood ash in spring, if I feel like it.
The most important thing, is to keep weeds down around them, to stop them having to fight with the local plants for food.

I think the best thing to do with a tree, is to bury something big under it, have you got a spare horse or cow?

~Chameleon~

Thanks to you both for your advice

I do have a huge bucket of fish blood & bone and usually chuck a handful in with anything I'm planting. Can I just chuck some into the ground around the plants too then? I've mulched just about everything in bark chip to try keep moisture in as the soil is very dry around here. By late Spring/Summer I usually have to water the gardens almost daily!

L-E I think you've just helped pinpoint why my Magnolia isn't producing prolific flowers this year.... it's planted not very far from a couple of large conifers in a hedge! It's a very dry area of the garden for that reason and no doubt poor soil quality. Didn't think that one through very well when I planted it there :doh:

Most of the garden has only been planted up in the last 2 years so none of the trees/shrubs are properly established yet and still in growing mode. Most of the perennials were planted between last summer and this spring, so still in very early stages of growth.

RAS

Totally agree re location, shelter and aspect affecting things.

Although one end of my plot gets very little sun in winter and was frozen for weeks this winter, it is sheltered. Once the sun gets onto it, it is a little sun trap. I can be wearing a vest there and at the other end routinely need a t-shirt and fleece on top to cope with the wind. Right now growth in the sheltered end is about 7-10 days ahead despite the frozen winter.

Mini_JK

kippers wrote: »

I'm sure i read somewhere that the goverment once again now allows the sale of this awful chemical provided it is made clear that it is not to be used or by-products used where crops are grown...some help this is as we all know it will find its way into our manure

You are correct, the chemical was only temporarily suspended, and since Oct last year it has been given the green light to be used again

There are further restrictions placed on its use as described here:
http://www.manurematters.co.uk/aminopyralid.htm

but I'm sure we will see problems arising again. I think it's too early in the season to see any problems just yet.

PS: the nasty chemical is called aminopyralid which is a weedkiller (not a fertilizer like "Nice username" says :rotfl:)