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  • FIRST POST
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Nov 13, 5:35 PM
    • 48,847Posts
    • 62,334Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Newbies! Need help with a private parking ticket? Read this before posting!!
    • #1
    • 10th Nov 13, 5:35 PM
    Newbies! Need help with a private parking ticket? Read this before posting!! 10th Nov 13 at 5:35 PM
    WELCOME!

    START YOUR OWN NEW THREAD IF YOU FEEL YOU STILL NEED TO ASK FOR ADVICE, BUT PLEASE NOT:

    ''I have read the NEWBIES thread but cannot find anything specific to my case...my case is different''.

    NO IT ISN'T. AND YOU DO NOT NEED SPECIFICS - FORGET THE DETAIL, THESE CASES ARE ALL THE SAME.

    THIS THREAD TELLS YOU HOW TO COMPLAIN & APPEAL.


    IF YOU WERE WONDERING: ''IS THIS UP TO DATE AS THIS THREAD IS FROM 2013?''

    ...YES, IT IS. SEE THE DATE LAST EDITED IN 2017 AS SHOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF EVERY POST...



    Forget the 14 day 'discount' if you wish to appeal; that bribe is not for you. And we would say never pay a private parking charge - they are never justified and the entire industry is rotten, so fight back.



    If you are not the registered keeper - e.g. a hire/company/lease car - see asterisk below and appeal EARLY. *

    If you stay in Scotland or NI please do complain to the retailer but do NOT appeal, DO NOT GIVE AWAY WHO WAS DRIVING (see lower section about Scotland/NI specifically).

    If you have SMALL CLAIM papers, DO NOT IGNORE OR YOU LOSE BY DEFAULT. See post #2 about how to defend.



    ALL CASES - COMPLAIN FIRST, ESPECIALLY OVER A RETAIL OR HOSPITAL CAR PARK:

    Always complain to the Retailer very quickly and assertively, WITH A RECEIPT IF POSSIBLE:

    Successful complaints about private parking tickets - how to get them cancelled! <<< CLICK

    From the successes there, see how easy it can be to get these cancelled by a retailer/hotel/landowner.




    Appealing a private PCN (England & Wales ONLY)

    Windscreen ticket from a BPA member? = STOP - wait and research before appealing!!

    If it was a windscreen 'PCN' (not postal) then wait 3 weeks and in that time, you MUST check the firm is an AOS member with the BPA or IPC (GOOGLE IT). DO NOT APPEAL AT ALL, IF THEY ARE NOT! Victims who rush to appeal could be handing a scam artist their details on a plate and - almost as bad - pointlessly throwing away appeal grounds open to the keeper. For example, don't appeal to tickets from 'ANPR Ltd' who are not members of any Trade Body and cannot get your name and address unless you are daft enough to tell them!


    In the case of CURRENT BRITISH PARKING ASSOCIATION (BPA) AOS MEMBERS ONLY, appeal online or by email at around day 26 after a windscreen PCN but as the KEEPER, not driver, using the BPA member version (blue writing) template below.

    Q:- Why wait till day 26 before appealing a BPA member PCN on the windscreen?

    A:- To engage them in the appeals process at a time when they should also be posting a Notice to Keeper. Many PPCs in the BPA forget the NTK when replying to an appeal and if you appeal as 'keeper' then the very fact a PPC then forgets to send you a NTK by day 56, gives you a winning point at POPLA stage. Don't forget this: if you appeal on day 25 or 26 after a windscreen PCN, make sure you take note of whether any postal NTK is ever received. You must include 'no keeper liability' at POPLA stage if you do NOT receive a NTK at all in that time. A rejection letter is not a 'NTK'.



    BUT IPC members are different:

    In the case of CURRENT IPC AOS MEMBERS ONLY, we now advise to WAIT a month or so, for a Notice to Keeper to arrive and then challenge once online or by email, as the KEEPER, not driver, using the template appeal for IPC members, as shown below.

    Q: Why wait for the 'NTK' to arrive in the post a month later, after finding an IPC member windscreen PCN?

    A: Because there has been shown to be no appeal worth trying really, you will get a rejection anyway, so you may as well leave it and see if they issue a NTK and let them apply to the DVLA (unless yours is a company or lease car of course, in which case you MUST appeal at windscreen PCN stage as stated at the end of this thread). Also, letting an IPC member get the data from the DVLA places obligations upon the PPC in the processing of that data which can have data protection implications for them if they misuse it (for example if they try to 'sell' the parking charge to a third party like MIL Collections). If the firm is litigious, the fact the data originated under DVLA rules (under the KADOE) can be useful in your defence (see post #2 about Small Claims).



    Postal PCN from a BPA or IPC member ? (i.e. with no mention of any windscreen ticket at all):

    A postal PCN or NTK might be headed up 'Notice to Keeper' or 'Reminder' or 'Charge Notice' or it may even be a random letter from a debt collector - it is still your Notice to Keeper, in effect, if it is the first letter to arrive.

    If you are sure that the ANPR has shown TWO visits to the car park as if they are one, you are not going mad! This is known by us on the forum as a 'double dip' visit, a known fault of this technology which shows the first in, last out photos by default. You can not only win your appeal (certainly) but you can sue the parking firm and the landowner/retailer who contracted them, and why not try to claim, say, £750 compensation if you are so minded (no guarantee but case law supports you as your data has been misused).

    Read this thread of links all about 'double dips' if you have fallen victim to this scam:

    Carthesis' 'double dip' ANPR cases thread

    And this one (thanks to Timothea) about possibly making a claim for compensation under the DPA for data misuse in certain circumstances:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585388


    ************************************************** ******


    THE FIRST APPEAL TO THE PPC

    What's the point of appealing and what happens next?

    - if this is a BPA member parking firm, the point is to get a POPLA code if you do not get it cancelled. We will happily check over a draft POPLA appeal you put together from post #3 of this thread, where there are template POPLA appeal points already written.

    - this is why not to name the driver (thanks to The Slithy Tove for this explanation):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69906180#post69906180



    ************************************************** *****************************************


    Template appeal for IPC members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:


    - if this is an IPC member parking firm, see post #3, there is no POPLA for you, so consumers do not get a fair appeal. Instead, just send this letter or a version of it, writing ONLY as the registered keeper, with their name and address (thanks to salmosalaris for the basis of this letter):


    Dear {name of IPC member - only IPC members for this version!!!}

    Re PCN number:

    I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your purported 'parking charge'. The driver will not be identified. I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company and are they the landowner?
    2. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    3. Please provide photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract with the driver.
    4. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.
    5. Please provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and/or systems & machines.

    Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs, which would be a thinly-veiled attempt at 'double recovery'. I will not respond to debt collectors and to involve a third party would be a failure to mitigate your costs as well as deliberate and knowing misuse of my data.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the IPC Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, as seems likely based on my research) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me. I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle.

    I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,



    THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER GOES HERE. THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.

    NO NEED TO USE YOUR REAL SIGNATURE - BUT DON'T POST UNLESS YOU HAVE TO - ALWAYS USE THE ONLINE APPEAL PAGE BECAUSE THE APPEAL CANNOT GET LOST AND YOU CAN KEEP A SCREEN PRINT. [/FONT]USE ANY EMAIL APPEAL OPTION IF FIRMS OFFER IT.


    You can add to the template above, 'in order to resolve the dispute I attach copies of...': the driver's receipts/bank transactions (or Hospital Appointment/Hotel booking, etc.) that day as 'they' were a genuine customer/patient, etc.



    ************************************************** *****************************************


    Template appeal for BPA members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:




    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,


    THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER GOES HERE. THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.

    NO NEED TO USE YOUR REAL SIGNATURE - BUT DON'T POST UNLESS YOU HAVE TO - ALWAYS USE THE ONLINE APPEAL PAGE BECAUSE THE APPEAL CANNOT GET LOST AND YOU CAN KEEP A SCREEN PRINT.
    USE ANY EMAIL APPEAL OPTION IF FIRMS OFFER IT.


    You can add to the template above, 'in order to resolve the dispute I attach copies of...': the driver's receipts/bank transactions (or Hospital Appointment/Hotel booking, etc.) that day as 'they' were a genuine customer/patient, etc.



    ************************************************** ****************************************


    Want to dig deeper? Check the compliance of your Notice to Keeper, if the PPC is citing 'keeper liability' under the POFA. Here's a link to Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 which applies in England/Wales only (bear in mind not all tickets or NTKs comply with this Schedule, so check yours, look for the words shown in paragraph 8 if it's a windscreen ticket followed by a NTK, or the words in paragraph 9 if it's a postal PCN):

    [/FONT]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

    If the NTK arrives provably late, this does not make the PCN 'void' but it means there is 'no keeper liability' possible.

    If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to) the a postal PCN has to arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket, and between day 29 and day 57 if there was a windscreen ticket. Some firms (e.g. Civil Enforcement, Highview, CP Plus, Smart Parking and some small PPCs) don't even bother with POFA 2012 wording so the keeper is not liable if you point that out to POPLA. So you can see why the keeper is the person identified in your appeal.



    ************************************************** ********************************************


    SECOND STAGE APPEAL = POPLA (BPA firms only)


    See separate post #3 below for how to appeal to POPLA and why NOT to appeal to the IAS (IPC firms version) in almost any case.




    DEBT COLLECTOR STAGE - SEE POST #4 BELOW

    JUST SEARCH THIS FORUM! So, for example if you have a Debt Recovery Plus letter talking about 'my findings' then search this forum for 'Recovery findings' as your keywords.

    PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, DO NOT START A NEW THREAD ABOUT DEBT RECOVERY LETTERS. READ OTHER THREADS.



    *******************************************

    If in Scotland/NI:

    Apart from (of course!!)
    complaining to the landowner/retailer you should IGNORE your fake PCN unless you are not the registered keeper and that is a company (hire car or leased/company vehicle).*

    You are safe to ignore because there is no worthwhile appeals process - do not believe what the fake PCN says! This Watchdog video still applies in Scotland and NI because a PPC has to know who was driving (unlike in England/Wales now):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAIcdi9niHA

    WHEN IGNORING IN SCOTLAND/NI, KEEP ALL LETTERS. DO NOT THROW THEM AWAY.

    ***************************


    * COMPANY, LEASE OR HIRE CARS ANYWHERE IN THE UK

    In the case of a company car or hire car, if you get a windscreen ticket you MUST appeal before day 28 (well before day 21 when it's an IPC firm which only 'offers' 21 days to appeal - check the PCN). This is in order to hook the PPC in your direction, before they get a chance to get the keeper's details from the DVLA.

    You should also warn the owner/keeper (Fleet Manager) not to pay if they do get a letter about it because they have no business to get involved in a fake PCN you have already appealed as driver, and you won't reimburse them if they are daft enough to pay it.

    If the hire/lease co gets a postal PCN and names you as the driver/hirer, that is a good thing as it removes them from the loop entirely and then you can follow the above advice as appropriate to your case - but check and see if they have charged an admin fee. Challenge that admin fee with the Fleet Manager, Hire firm or your HR Manager, if your car use t&cs do not support this deduction for a mere invoice (as opposed to a fine/penalty).

    Europcar are one firm which will refund the admin fee if you win your appeal.

    Here are two examples of a successful first appeal (but one that gets a POPLA code is good too - the appeal can then be winnable - so don't expect early cancellation, this is rare). These examples relate to a situation where the PPC has (very commonly indeed) failed to send the required 'documents' to the hirer with the postal Notice, by day 21 after the date they were informed of the hirer's details:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69859059#post69859059

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69767583#post69767583


    Thanks to Edna Basher for the template appeal to use where it's a Hire/company/lease car and a postal Notice has been sent after the hirer/lessee/company car user has been named. Remember, that does not mean they have named the 'driver'. You are the keeper.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 30-06-2017 at 5:20 PM. Reason: n
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 14, 7:42 PM
    • 48,847 Posts
    • 62,334 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:42 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:42 PM
    SMALL CLAIM? START A NEW THREAD PLEASE.

    Firstly, if you have no claim yet, you may wish to check how likely it is that 'your' PPC might try a small claim. You can check for yourself by Googling 'BMPA Insight' and the name of any parking firm...court numbers and advice tailored to each company.

    If you have a Letter Before Claim (LBC, sometimes referred to on forums as a LBCCC), you must respond robustly. Sometimes an assertively-worded reply sees the claim off and cancels the PCN, like here in a CEL case where I wrote a reply (post #11). Anyone can plagiarise it but don't copy irrelevant stuff like the Equality Act part if it is not right for your case:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5673397

    And look at Gan's examples of replies, in any similar thread on pepipoo forum. Here is one he has suggested for Gladstones' LBC:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=108556&st=0&p=1224254&#entry12 24254

    ...or from LoadsofChildren123, who is legally qualified:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72358831#post72358831

    and another one by LoadsofChildren123, in response to the robo-claim (parking equivalent of ambulance-chasers), BW Legal:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72448659#post72448659

    and a long one I wrote against a multi-PCN event totalling in excess of £3000, where the PPC is not able to invoke keeper liability:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72509151#post72509151

    DO RESPOND - if it later goes to a hearing then the Judge will see this correspondence. Seize the moment to point out how the firm have been unreasonable and to ask for evidence, photos, a copy of the signage terms, etc.

    You do not have to write in legalese but don't write a weak 'appeal' type reply, NOT: ''I can't afford it/there was no loss/ this is what happened/excuses...!''

    If you get court claim, do not panic, we assist people & many win! It's more difficult to show you a 'template suggestion' defence since ParkingEye v Beavis. But we do win in 99% of cases and/or and get cases discontinued all the time!

    ALMOST NO-ONE REPORTS A LOSS - YOU DON'T NEED A SOLICITOR, WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING AND WE HELP FOR FREE.

    So, where to start dealing with your claim?

    DO NOT START SCRAWLING A HALF-BAKED 'DEFENCE' ON THE PAPERWORK. STOP!

    Here is a guide to MCOL & how to acknowledge service (the first step to get time to defend), put together by another genuine PPC fighter:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvqu3bask5m0zir/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?dl=0


    Urgently start your own thread and show us your own tailored draft defence and we'll assist on a case by case basis.

    You do not get a CCJ even if you lose; as long as you pay within 30 days of judgment it's all sorted and nothing stays on the register (i.e. your credit record). Take heart from the act that almost all posters here, some 99%, WIN their defended case or see it discontinued with no hearing. I can recall just one lost in a year, and he then paid it, no CCJ, nothing bad.

    Gladstones & BW Legal robo-claims are so generic and ill-prepared that almost every poster wins. No 'risk' as long as you don't miss court deadlines, you may as well defend and fight. You will likely pay less than is being demanded even if you lose, all over with no effect on your credit rating - you will have cost THEM more.

    We hardly ever see any lost.

    Here are some cases won or in progress:

    A typical Civil Enforcement (CEL) generic defence:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5667549

    Here's a more bespoke, legally-worded defence v CEL where the OP has rights to park:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72744577#post72744577

    Here is one I wrote for a disabled person accused of a few mins overstay (BW Legal for VCS):

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl1e9kocnuwvjzc/Defence%20-%20VCS%20Claim.docx?dl=0

    It was in this case: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=109054

    DO NOT blindly copy that one but you can see how to set it out: numbered, double line-spaced in Times New Roman font 12.


    A defence about a car which was authorised by an employer to be unloading in a gated business complex:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71643736#post71643736

    A really detailed 'covering every base' defence example is here (BW Legal case again, Excel):

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=98775 - post #69

    A Gladstones defence, using some wording suggested by IamEmanresu:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71552005#post71552005

    Another recent Gladstones defence, covering all the bases (a pre-POFA one about a parking event pre-Oct 2012):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71726521#post71726521

    Here is a defence from 2017, another Gladstones farce of a claim, about the failure of a Pay by Phone app:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5659621

    Here is a defence written for a COMPANY DEFENDANT (Gladstones case, cannot have been driving, POFA not followed by PPM):

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=98803 - post #80

    And one written re 'no permit' allegation from Pace Recovery & Storage Ltd, T/A Ace Security Services, Gladstones case:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5485681 - post #159

    If your case is about YOUR OWN SPACE or parking in a residents' car park as a legit visitor, please read THIS from the parking Prankster and also consider doing a counter-claim and/or Letter before Action to the site Managing Agent:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/residential-ticket-only-cancelled-after.html

    Here is a defence for an 'own space' residential site, by Johnersh who is legally qualified:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72977032#post72977032

    Another Gladstones one, Euro Parking Services for 'not parking within the markings of a bay or space':

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=109208 - post #12

    an here's some wording to include in a defence when it was a Pay & Display car park with a small tariff allegedly unpaid:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72768984#post72768984


    IMPORTANT - KNOW WHAT YOU MUST DO AND BY WHEN!

    Here is a walk-through the process from defence onwards (i.e. AFTER acknowledgement of service) by Loadsofchildren123:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72244727#post72244727

    Here's a summary from bargepole of what happens when, what you MUST do in time, re the paperwork & deadlines:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5546325

    Here is his advice about how to set out your defence, which bargepole recommends is best posted:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71228944#post71228944

    Irrelevant Defences and How To Avoid Them - what NOT to argue (DO NOT ARGUE ''NO LOSS' OR 'EXTORTIONATE CHARGE'):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5555458

    Do not think putting in the defence is your only job. Directions Questionnaire must be completed and returned to the claimant and the court, explained by IamEmanresu:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71763411#post71763411

    Once allocated to your local court, you will be given a clear date by which YOU MUST file the evidence ('exhibits') and any Witness Statement (i.e. yours, as bargepole says in the above link!). At witness statement stage (usually NOT LATER THAN 14 DAYS BEFORE YOUR HEARING!) don't forget to file the evidence you will rely upon, which usually should at least include:

    (a) a copy of the Beavis case sign as a comparison to show how awful the small print sign was in yours case
    (b) photos proving the scarce and illegible small print signs in your case, a view showing the lack of entrance signs, etc.
    (c) a video of how it looks from a car is good evidence! You can get a passenger to hold a camera or phone and record the lack of signs seen to the point of parking.
    (d) a copy of Schedule 4 of the POFA - there is a link to it in post #1 above. The Judge will NOT have this to hand & is unlikely to be familiar with it. This is only applicable if you are defending as keeper.
    (e) a copy of Henry Greenslade's wording from the POPLA Annual Report 2015 'Understanding Keeper Liability' if defending as keeper.
    (f) a copy of your lease or tenancy agreement if this is an 'own space' or 'block of flats' dispute where YOU have primacy of contract.
    (g) the case transcripts that support your argument (get them from the Parking Prankster's case law page), e.g. if arguing prohibitive 'forbidding parking' signs which offer no contract a driver can accept, you need PCM v Bull; if arguing that this is a residential space where the tenant/leaseholder has already been granted (impliedly or explicitly) the right to park or unload you need Jopson v Home Guard (a persuasive Appeal case heard by a Senior Circuit Judge) and PACE v Mr N, etc.
    (h) the IPC or BPA Code of practice, where it supports your case (e.g. the grace periods section 13 of the CoP in a BPA few minutes' 'overstay' claim).
    (i) a Pay & Display ticket if you have it in such a case, e.g. if arguing it was displayed. DO NOT ARGUE 'no loss'!

    Here's a 'court report' from 2017 from a winner on pepipoo (both forums have lots of such victories):

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=112656&st=40&p=1296627&#entry1 296627

    Here is a thread showing a Witness Statement AND a summary of his day in court. AB Express won at their hearing v VCS:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5070951&page=4

    Here is a witness statement written from a registered keeper who was not driving and you can see it is paragraph-numbered throughout and it references numbered exhibits, creating an organised argument with illustrations/evidence:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=106959&st=40&p=1225247&#entry1 225247

    Here is a court report from MA61 about beating a Gladstones case (NB: we have 100% record here and on that day, 31.5.17, posters won 4 out of 4 cases):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5657908

    here is MA61's prep (the other 3 cases won that day were by 'stephthechosenone', Jack Basta and Jinxycat, so read them too):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5650032

    and here is a Witness Statement which saw off BW Legal, in a case about a tiny alleged 10p 'owed' because the machine swallowed it:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72186852#post72186852

    Here is a Witness Statement I wrote for a person post #5 (a case about a keypad error re the VRN, remember that if this is a 'close match' VRN, it is not proved to be the fault of the driver and could always be a dodgy key on the equipment):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5636211

    Here in post #9 is IamEmanresu from here (posting as emanresu on pepipoo) explaining witness statements and skeleton arguments:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=106957&st=0&p=1239147&#entry12 39147

    Here is a case where I separated the 2 documents into Witness Statement (the facts about letters received, etc.) and the skeleton (legal argument):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72047642#post72047642

    Here is a humdinger of a skeleton argument, written in depth and with case law but all relevant, for a residential 'own space' case:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5591251&page=5

    Here is a very nicely set out (if long!) skeleton argument including case law, re a short stop (no offer of parking) in a BW Legal case where the registered keeper defendant was not the driver, and VCS did not use the POFA so 'no liability' and 'no contract':

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ojb2w37vx7hhegm/VCS-v-Quayle_Defendant-Skeleton-Argument%28rev%29.pdf?dl=0

    And here is a costs schedule, you take this to the hearing and claim your costs for lost wages/leave, your travel, parking(!) etc. if you win:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72079752#post72079752

    You CAN claim loss of leave but some Judges do not know this, so have this up your sleeve in your notes in your 'costs schedule': ''27.14.2(e) a sum not exceeding the amount specified in Practice Direction 27 for any loss of earnings or loss of leave by a party or witness due to attending a hearing or to staying away from home for the purposes of attending a hearing''

    If you have such a strong case that the Claim was VEXATIOUS, unreasonable and without merit, see this about claiming punitive costs, as written by legally-qualified LoadsofChildren123:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72639343#post72639343


    HAVE YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT A CCJ (JUDGMENT FOR CLAIMANT) AND NEED IT SET ASIDE?

    Here's how - DO NOT ring the parking firm up...and do not just pay them:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5581374

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585047

    You may like to read this thread:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5619965

    ...which includes the OP's statement in support of his/her set aside, and an outcome which included the £255 being refunded. They were in and out in 5 minutes and he/she just asked for the £255 to be reimbursed by the non-attending claimant (quite often they don't attend).

    And the Judge agreed, all over, claim struck out entirely!

    IamEmanresu's summary of your choices:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71776504#post71776504

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72001618#post72001618

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72212851#post72212851



    THINK YOU HAVE GROUNDS TO COUNTER-SUE FOR DATA MISUSE UNDER THE DPA? RESEARCH IT CAREFULLY FIRST.

    READ TIMOTHEA'S THREAD ABOUT DPA BREACH:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585388

    Some cases lend themselves to a valid counter-claim. Be realistic and informed and get your priorities right and your evidence first. If you still wish to issue a claim for data misuse:

    1. Think about who best to claim against. On MCOL you can name up to two defendants = so, the parking firm and the landowner/agent/retailer who contracted them would be the best bet in many cases.

    2. Research how to do this properly, it is not for the faint-hearted. You must follow the CPR and issue all parties with a LBCCC first, so read up on how to issue small claims and if in doubt, start a new thread before rushing into it and wasting your court fee.

    3. Research the Data Protection Principles. Quote them in your LBCCC, then refer to them in your Particulars of Claim. You do not have to show loss (see Timothea's thread) but you do need to show that the DPA has been breached and that compensation is the remedy - quoting the case law that supports it - and stating how the claimant has suffered distress. Then the Witness Statement later, MUST also explain (in detail) the distress caused by the harassment and misuse of data, as well as the facts of what was received when and what evidence you are relying on (usual stuff, photos of unclear/small font signs; a copy of any lease/tenancy agreement for ''own space'' residential cases, to show your primacy of contract and your unfettered right, already granted, to park).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-08-2017 at 10:29 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 14, 7:43 PM
    • 48,847 Posts
    • 62,334 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:43 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:43 PM
    SECOND STAGE APPEAL - POPLA OR IAS



    POPLA IS OFFERED BY BPA AOS FIRMS

    DO NOT APPEAL SAYING WHO WAS DRIVING, NEITHER AT FIRST APPEAL STAGE NOR AT POPLA.

    POPLA Appeals are submitted here (New POPLA system Sept 2015; it's horrible)!

    http://www.popla.co.uk/

    but don't feel you have to answer their questions, you should write a detailed appeal and attach it as a PDF along with photos (use the parking firm's own photo of the sign if the words are illegible and the £100 (or whatever) charge is not in LARGE letters. Certainly don't blow it by trying to answer about 'what happened' just because POPLA questions prompt you to answer! You can appeal as keeper and raise the point (among others) that the NTK is not compliant with the POFA 2012 statutory wording.

    To find a relevant POPLA appeal written recently, always search the forum well, choosing good keywords. So if yours is an APCOA PCN at an Airport, search the forum for the words 'APCOA POPLA Airport' and you will find a good one like this, in seconds, that you can copy and adapt (these are deliberately long, to make a PPC give up):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71489034#post71489034

    And in the same vein, to find a UKPC POPLA appeal where no NTK was ever served to the keeper, a search finds this:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71383972#post71383972


    ParkingEye (make sure you search it as ONE word as shown) can be best handled by searching for the relevant place as a keyword, so 'ParkingEye POPLA Aire Street' or 'ParkingEye Tower Road POPLA' or 'ParkingEye POPLA Hospital' would be good choices of keywords to find very recent examples.

    ALWAYS look at the wording of any PCN from ParkingEye to see if it is a 'POFA/keeper liability after 29 days' one or not. There are two versions. As long as you have not said who was driving in the first appeal, if you are lucky enough to have one like the 'blank space' one discussed here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71526676

    ...then you *will* win your appeal using the template POPLA point about 'no keeper liability' from a PE non-POFA type PCN followed by the template point about the appellant not being shown to be the individual liable (the signs, landowner authority, grace periods etc for good measure!

    This person (below) was not lucky enough to have the 'non-POFA' easily-winning version PE PCN but still won with this PE POPLA appeal so it is certainly possible and PE do not like the very long 'throw the kitchen sink at it' approach to POPLA appeals and often give up:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71563041#post71563041

    I have only shown a few links as examples of POPLA appeals because they change and evolve. Searching will find the most recent similar example; do not use one older than Summer 2016. Do not look at old ones about 'no GPEOL' or no loss because that's not going to win. Cobble together a draft POPLA appeal to suit your case, based on the examples your search finds, and show us your POPLA draft in your original thread like the above people did; don't start a new one unless you have started no thread yet.

    Easier than it sounds because we now have a number of POPLA appeal points covering the essential areas for appeal. They are in 'near template' state, but will need to be checked first against the circumstances of your parking event.

    These are long on detail and when put together form a formidable block of text, deliberately so to scare off some PPCs who cannot be bothered to contest (fairly common).

    Signage (I deliberately go to town in this section, don't cut it down!):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71285691&postcount=2341

    - The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287626&postcount=2342

    Landowner Authority

    No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287628&postcount=2343

    No Keeper Liability (windscreen ticket, no follow on NtK)

    Example for cases where the PPC issued only a windscreen PCN but did not follow it with a NTK:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287643&postcount=2345

    Permit car parks (residential 'own space' appeals, or industrial/employer car parks where the car was permitted):

    And two appeal points to use together (as well as some of the above, of course) for PERMIT car parks where you were loading/unloading or permitted to be there:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71339517&postcount=2361

    You can copy them verbatim and put them together and show us, to check nothing is missed. Like this person did, built an appeal from the templates above (luckily he/she had the ParkingEye PCN version with the blank space at the bottom and no mention of keeper liability as they knew they'd posted it too late).

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5538581

    A ParkingEye appeal is 100% winnable with that style PCN as long as you do NOT shoot yourself in the foot first by saying who was driving.

    Here are two POPLA appeals I wrote recently (specific to a ParkingEye car park/machine issue and PCN):

    Duncan Nimock's case:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/lukk13xep4s6ckz/Appeal%20v%20ParkingEye%20-%20POPLA%20November%202016.docx?dl=0

    marganne's case:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/rzau2e68ddbniow/ParkingEye%20Aire%20St%20POPLA%20appeal.docx?dl=0


    These then get saved as PDFs and uploaded to POPLA under OTHER (ONLY) - do not think you only have 2000 characters!

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/new-popla-process.html


    ****************************

    AFTER SUBMITTING YOUR POPLA APPEAL:

    What if I do not receive my POPLA evidence pack?

    POPLA tells us that the operator is expected to show their evidence to the appellant. If the operator doesn't send it to you quickly after POPLA get their copy, email POPLA back within days of them telling you they have seen the evidence and copy in aos@britishparking.co.uk putting the POPLA code/name of parking firm & PCN number in the subject line.

    Complain and ask POPLA for an extension of time to comment on the evidence. YOU MUST COMMENT.


    How can I comment on the evidence sent to POPLA, they've written a lot and shown lots of pictures of signs?!

    Look through the evidence and find things to rebut - such as the signage being pants/nothing to show how close the car was to a sign. Or the witness statement/contract being heavily redacted, out of date, not signed by the landowner.

    Try Googling the name of the signatory purportedly from the landowner - question, who really is that person? For example we've seen contracts ostensibly signed by people who left the Country and their position, two years before(!) and we've seen 'Premier Park' supply lots of witness statements signed by what looks like their OWN STAFF ('Rachael Smith' and 'Clive Stevens' are two such recycled names who apparently own almost all locations!).

    Put the POPLA verification code correctly in the email subject line and attach a rebuttal of the operator's case, blow by blow (but make it CONCISE) without naming the driver. Do not re-write your appeal or call it 'an appeal' or POPLA will not read it.

    Examples of evidence 'comments' here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69778312#post69778312

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69835948#post69835948

    You can use the 'Portal' to add comments but that only stays open for six days and restricts your word count badly, and doesn't allow photos, so emailing a PDF rebuttal to POPLA is best, even if the Portal comments box is closed. For example, you may want to copy the operator's own signage photos and point out how they do not prominently show the amount of the parking charge itself in large letters, which is in breach of 2(3) of schedule 4 of the POFA and contrary to the BPA code of practice AND means the sign is not clear or prominent enough to form any contract with a driver before parking.

    If you can't read the £ of the charge (some signs do not even have the sum on them) you can't agree to pay it so don't just accept the version of the sign shown in close up, look at their evidence of your car near a sign - can you read the £sum of the parking charge?


    What will likely happen in the end, re my POPLA appeal?

    Read the end of the 'POPLA Decisions' sticky thread now, for some recent winners. Recently we've seen POPLA wins on signage being inadequate/dark/too small to be read from a car before parking and on 'no keeper liability' and on 'no landowner authority shown'. But in 2016 we've started to see some absolutely shocking appeals lost. POPLA is not as easy to win as it was, hence why it's best tio read recent ones and adapt them & get advice on the forum.

    POPLA and the importance of rebutting the evidence in a final email to POPLA, is discussed here in the second half of this post:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=68548048&highlight=#post68548048

    What will happen if I lose at POPLA?

    - you will most likely (unless it's a very litigious PPC like ParkingEye) just get a series of hysterical 'pay up or else' debt collector letters, or maybe letters from the PPC themselves - see separate post about ignoring them, below.

    or

    - you might have to defend this if the PPC tries a small claim band they might be buoyed by an POPLA 'win' under their belt to brandish in their evidence. That's why complaints to retailers or landowner can be timely even after a POPLA loss.

    You really *should* robustly complain to POPLA, if the decision is ridiculous. For example, we've had registered keepers appeal where there was never a NTK served (so legally the keeper cannot possibly - in any circumstances as long as the driver has not been identified - be liable) yet POPLA in 2016 has said those appellants must pay. What you do is complain first to complaints@popla.co.uk being careful to point out how the Assessor has erred in law and when they tell you to get lost, complain to ISPA which oversees POPLA.

    To find examples of this, search the forum for 'complaints@popla.co.uk' or 'ISPA complain about popla' which should show some recent rants by appellants who have complained about a lost case.

    Do you have to pay of you lose at POPLA? No.



    ************************************************** ****************************



    The 'IAS' offered by IPC companies is considered far worse than POPLA.

    It is named and shamed on forum posts regularly as a 'kangaroo court' because even a strong appeal loses in almost every case. The IAS favours the parking firms and expects a mountain of evidence from the appellant. Do not use mitigating circumstances.

    HO87 explains the problems with the IAS anonymous and apparently unaccountable appeals system here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=67067144#post67067144

    and this is typical thread where we've discussed the issue; all agree it appears to be a 'kangaroo court':

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5149137

    Here I explain my reasons why I don't recommend trying the appeal at IAS stage, except in very rare cases where you have a slam-dunk winning point:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=68548048&highlight=#post68548048

    However, if it's a lease/hire car and a NTK went to the hire firm first, you CAN potentially win at IAS by cribbing from this IAS win wording:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=67815901#post67815901

    OPINIONS DIFFER - BUT ONE THING IS CLEAR - DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT PAY £15 FOR THE 'BINDING' IAS VERSION!

    Please don't start a thread asking if you should appeal to the IAS unless you have very rare circumstances that might make yours worth a try.

    I say, after seeing their prima facie case, 90% of people should NOT try an acgtual appeal unless you realise you will almost certainly lose and do it for the right reasons! Do not hand the operator the 'advantage' of an IAS win. But others on here disagree and feel we need IAS losses in order to collect some ludicrous decisions to add to a complaint to the DVLA. Poll and discussion here so make your own mind up but don't expect to win the appeal - BUT WE ARE NOT SAYING PAY!:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5311944


    Here Umkomaas explains your options:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69418259&highlight=#post69418259


    As always, DO NOT OVERLOOK THE POWER OF A COMPLAINT TO RETAILER/LANDOWNER ABOUT THESE SCUM FIRMS:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4766249

    SO GET COMPLAINING.


    What will happen if I lose at IAS?

    Discussed here and in other threads you can find by searching this forum for 'lost IAS' or similar keywords:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5334100

    What happens would be:

    - you will most likely (unless it's a very litigious PPC) just get a series of hysterical 'pay up or else' debt collector letters, or maybe letters from the PPC themselves - see separate post about ignoring them, below. No need to panic.

    or

    - you might have to defend this if the PPC tries a small claim band they might be buoyed by an IAS 'win' under their belt to brandish in their evidence.

    Here the Parking Prankster suggests that if you are not using the IAS (would rather not have that loss under your belt) a registered keeper should write & explain why not and offer to use the Consumer Ombudsman to resolve the dispute:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/consumer-ombudsman-can-deal-with.html

    Disputes have been raised with the DVLA and the CTSI regarding the IAS, 'kangaroo court' so it is now perfectly legitimate to say that as a consumer you do not wish to use the IAS until the dispute is resolved and suggest an alternative ADR.

    So you could write like this poster has done - but don't expect it to stop the letter chain from daft debt collector teenagers in a call centre, who need to get a real job:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69450157&highlight=#post69450157



    What will happen if I do not bother with the IAS stage?

    - you will get a series of hysterical 'pay up or else' debt collector letters, or maybe letters from the PPC themselves - see separate post about ignoring them, below.

    or

    - you might be sued...but we help posters win 99% of the time and there is no CCJ even if you lost, then paid (probably a LOWER sum than the debt collector letters/claim scream for).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-08-2017 at 1:29 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 14, 7:44 PM
    • 48,847 Posts
    • 62,334 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:44 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:44 PM
    'IGNORE THE DEBT COLLECTORS' STAGE

    DO NOT PANIC!




    CAN'T SAY IT ENOUGH, THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR TALKING AD INFINITUM ABOUT DEBT COLLECTOR LETTER CHAINS SO PLEASE SPARE US!!!!!!! DO NOT START A NEW THREAD ABOUT DEBT COLLECTOR TEDIUM, PLEASE, JUST SEARCH AND READ WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN SAID.


    READ THIS CLICKY LINK (YES THE BLUE BIT, CLICK ON IT!) AND DO NOT, PLEASE DON'T, START A NEW THREAD ABOUT ROSSENDALES or DEBT RECOVERY PLUS OR ZZPS OR WRIGHT HASSALL!



    Debt Collectors letters or threats of court? Thinking you may be too late to appeal?

    You may get debt collector letters, e.g. 'Debt Recovery Plus' (also using trading names of 'PCS' and 'Zenith') or you might have 'ZZPS' or even solicitor letter heading from 'Gladstones' or 'Wright Hassall' which actually asks for payment to a debt collector = a debt collector letter then!


    THESE ARE NOT BAILIFFS, THEY CANNOT SEND THE BOYS ROUND! THIS IS JUST A LETTER-CHAIN YOU GET IF YOU HAVE NOT APPEALED.
    See this linked explanatory video which will help you to see it for what it is and say 'big deal' about the letters:
    LINK: Is a debt collector the same as a bailiff? - StepChange...


    All the blue wording below includes a link for you to click about the stupid debt collectors so click on the name:

    If you have letters from any debt collector such as Debt Recovery Plus or Zenith and are on the face of it, too late to 'appeal', then (if in England/Wales) either ignore them or robustly respond.

    To be clear - I recommend ignoring debt collectors, as the response leads nowhere - certainly NEVER ring them!

    As well as the links shown (click on the blue words), here's a strong response to send if the PPC says you are 'too late' and it's now with a debt collector:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=82895&st=20&p=904431&#entry904 431

    and here's a 'Letter before Claim' drafted to include the Landowner as well, warning them to call their dogs off due to harassment (after 35 DRP letters!):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=64297676&highlight=#post64297676

    ...and here's a case (link below) where a strong response to ParkingEye when they were nearly at court stage, pulled it back to a POPLA appeal stage even though ParkingEye had already stated (wrongly) that it was 'too late' for POPLA. It is NOT too late for POPLA, insist on it and they can't easily take it to court. You can make their position very difficult - and maybe a POPLA code and rejection letter will follow as it did here. months after the parking event:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=63990978#post63990978


    IF YOU REALLY WANT TO WASTE HOURS ON IT THEN PLEASE NO NEW THREAD, JUST SEARCH THE PARKING FORUM FOR THEIR NAME AND MAKE A CUPPA AND READ ALL ABOUT THEIR SILLY LETTER CHAINS, AND EITHER SEND ONE ROBUST REPLY OR TOTALLY IGNORE THEM.

    I recommend the second option.

    THAT'S ALL.


    KEEP ALL THE LETTERS IN CASE IT BECOMES HARASSMENT, OR IN CASE THE PPC EVER TRY A SMALL CLAIM.


    HTH
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-08-2017 at 1:26 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Crabman
    • By Crabman 25th Jul 14, 10:41 PM
    • 9,564 Posts
    • 6,955 Thanks
    Crabman
    • #5
    • 25th Jul 14, 10:41 PM
    • #5
    • 25th Jul 14, 10:41 PM
    This thread is for general information only.

    Please do not post questions about your parking tickets in this thread.


    For personalised help and guidance from our wonderful forum regulars (for free ) please start your own thread by clicking on this blue button:

    Last edited by Crabman; 16-11-2014 at 11:35 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Savings & Investments, ISAs & Tax-free Savings, Public Transport & Cycling, Motoring and Parking Fines, Tickets & Parking Boards which means I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly & I can move & merge posts there. Board Guides are not moderators & don't read every post. If you spot a contentious or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com

    • danb87
    • By danb87 7th Nov 16, 2:41 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    danb87
    • #6
    • 7th Nov 16, 2:41 PM
    BW Legal Final Notice Letter
    • #6
    • 7th Nov 16, 2:41 PM
    Hi,

    I am looking for some help, i have received a letter from BW Legal on 04/11/16 for a Final notice to pay them £154 for parking in the peel centre (January 2014) apparently with no valid ticket. I received a letter last month on 4th/10/16 which i presumed was just a junk letter as i have not had any prior correspondence from Excel parking of this company.

    I have no recollection of this occurring as the alleged was such a long time ago so i don't know the best way to defend this. Can anyone help me write a response to them as i certainly don't want to pay what they are asking for something i have no idea about. I have read previous threads on here and it seems like they are out to just make money out of whoever they can, however i cannot find a template i can use specific to my letters.

    Any help wouldd be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 7th Nov 16, 2:43 PM
    • 7,345 Posts
    • 7,365 Thanks
    pogofish
    • #7
    • 7th Nov 16, 2:43 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Nov 16, 2:43 PM
    Please help yourself by taking heed of this post and acting accordingly:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=66109023&postcount=6

    Hijacking an info thread is not the way to do it - especially when you already have a thread posted properly!
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 7th Nov 16, 4:54 PM
    • 40,169 Posts
    • 80,254 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 7th Nov 16, 4:54 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Nov 16, 4:54 PM
    How come this thread has been unlocked again?
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Nov 16, 5:00 PM
    • 48,847 Posts
    • 62,334 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 16, 5:00 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 16, 5:00 PM
    COMPLAINTS (AND COMMON ACRONYMS EXPLAINED):


    Always complain to the landowner/retailer very quickly and assertively:


    Successful complaints about private parking tickets - how to get them cancelled!

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4766249 Look how easy it can be to get these cancelled by a retailer/hotel/landowner!

    Most fake PCNs can be cancelled if it is a retailer car park, simply by COMPLAINING! If you go for the complaint assertively and quickly you won't even have to bother with any of the above appeals/POPLA stuff!

    Look at the linked thread above - I have given typical contact emails in post #3 - for stores, and tips about who to moan at if it's not a shop on site. Also there's a template 'rant' of a complaint letter to give you the flavour of how angry a customer is entitled to be about this utter harassment, particularly if your only error was taking too long shopping!

    Retail Park with lots of stores? Google it and find the management or landowner contact details.


    ************************************************** **************************************

    Complaining about an AOS member (BPA or IPC member, anywhere in the UK):

    Contact details for complaints to the BPA or IPC (as applicable to your PPC) and the DVLA below.

    These are useful resources to influence getting parking charges cancelled, such as when an AOS member has not followed POFA 2012 but is still alleging the keeper is 'liable' or if their signage is missing or if they refuse to give you a POPLA/IAS code, or have clearly breached their applicable Code of Practice:


    DVLA:
    Complain every time to the DVLA if your PPC are faffing around not sending you a POPLA or IAS code even if you appealed in time, or have breached the Code of Practice.

    Point out that any breach of the Code of Practice the PPC is signed up to, breaches the KADOE contract to get DVLA data. State that the matter has been escalated to the CCR team because you have no confidence in the data release team to take such a complaint seriously as it's in the public domain that they have dismissed these issues far too many times recently without so much as even supplying a copy of the DVLA complaints procedure leaflet. State that if your complaint is not resolved properly your intention would be to involve your MP and refer the issue to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=65678397&highlight=#post65678397

    email - ccrt@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    Customer Complaint Resolution Team
    D16W
    DVLA
    Swansea
    SA6 7JL




    BPA:

    aos@britishparking.co.uk
    Steve Clark
    Head of Operational Services
    British Parking Association
    Stuart House
    41-43 Perrymount Road
    Haywards Heath
    West Sussex
    RH16 3BN


    And if your PPC is with the IPC and appears to have breached their Code of Practice, the IPC web-site has the following info about complaints:

    Compliance Monitoring
     The IPC is not able to consider complaints about members unless it is regarding an alleged instance of non-compliance of the Code. Similarly, the IPC are not able to intefere with decisions of Parking Operators in relation to the validity of charges that they issue... If you need to refer a complaint to us then please contact us.


    IPC email:
    contact@theIPC.info



    ************************************************** ***********************


    Some forum acronyms explained (REMEMBER THAT SOME OF THESE WILL NOT MEAN ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THE FORUM)

    AOS = Approved Operator Scheme of an Accredited Trade Association such as the BPA (or the new one, the IPC). Only AOS members can get DVLA data.

    BPA = British Parking Association, merely a Trade Body for its member PPCs (not a regulator & not on your side, however you can use them to complain).

    IAS = a 2nd stage 'SO CALLED independent' appeal service, applicable in England/Wales for IPC AOS members only. Pointless.

    IPC = International Parking Community - merely a Trade Body for its member PPCs (not a regulator & not on your side, however you can use them to complain). Forget their so-called independent appeal stage of IAS in most cases, shockingly rude and arrogant bullyboy (allegedly biased) decisions have been reported.

    LBCCC/LBC/LBA = Letter Before County Court Claim/Letter Before Claim/Letter Before Action. DO NOT IGNORE IT. How to respond.

    MCOL = Money Claim Online.

    NTK = Notice to Keeper which should be the first letter sent to the registered keeper. See below for how to appeal if in England/Wales.

    PPC = our forum shorthand only, for 'private parking company'.

    POFA 2012 = Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (specifically Schedule 4 as linked below). England/Wales ONLY.

    POPLA = Parking on Private Land Appeals - a 2nd stage 'independent' appeal service, applicable in England/Wales and for BPA AOS members only. Sometimes found to be awful in 2016 so you do have to cover all bases first time, in your POPLA appeal.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-08-2017 at 1:24 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • caffenero1
    • By caffenero1 22nd Nov 16, 4:10 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    caffenero1
    If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to) the a postal PCN has to arrive by day 15 if there was no windscreen ticket, and between day 29 and day 57 if there was a windscreen ticket. Some firms (e.g. Civil Enforcement, CP Plus, Smart Parking and some small PPCs) don't even bother with POFA 2012 wording so the keeper is not liable if you point that out to POPLA. So you can see why the keeper is the person identified in your appeal !

    Can you explain what this means please? I recieved a NTK that cites keeper liability under POFA 2012, but 61 days after a windshield ticket - what does that mean for me?

    Thanks in advance
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 22nd Nov 16, 4:21 PM
    • 7,345 Posts
    • 7,365 Thanks
    pogofish
    If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to) the a postal PCN has to arrive by day 15 if there was no windscreen ticket, and between day 29 and day 57 if there was a windscreen ticket. Some firms (e.g. Civil Enforcement, CP Plus, Smart Parking and some small PPCs) don't even bother with POFA 2012 wording so the keeper is not liable if you point that out to POPLA. So you can see why the keeper is the person identified in your appeal !

    Can you explain what this means please? I recieved a NTK that cites keeper liability under POFA 2012, but 61 days after a windshield ticket - what does that mean for me?

    Thanks in advance
    Originally posted by caffenero1
    Please don't hijack info threads - Stick to your existing thread for help/further questions.
    • N41na
    • By N41na 24th Nov 16, 6:39 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    N41na
    Hello all!
    Appreciating the advice thag is being shared. I wanted to also reach out for your help as i have now received a letter from athena ANPR advising they have exhausted their appeal process. They have said they will not enter into any further discussions regarding this and if i disagree i needto go throuhn ISA.

    Do i ignore this letter or appeal through ISA, they have only given me 4 days before i need to pay the full amount? Letter is dated 22nd.

    Urgently seeking advice on this. Any help i will be really greatful.

    Thanks


    Naina
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Nov 16, 6:42 PM
    • 13,983 Posts
    • 21,963 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    New thread please! Read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • N41na
    • By N41na 24th Nov 16, 7:11 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    N41na
    Parking fine
    Hello all!
    Appreciating the advice thag is being shared. I wanted to also reach out for your help as i have now received a letter from athena ANPR advising they have exhausted their appeal process. They have said they will not enter into any further discussions regarding this and if i disagree i needto go throuhn ISA.

    Do i ignore this letter or appeal through ISA, they have only given me 4 days before i need to pay the full amount? Letter is dated 22nd.

    Urgently seeking advice on this. Any help i will be really greatful.

    Thanks


    Naina
    • Redx
    • By Redx 24th Nov 16, 7:13 PM
    • 15,151 Posts
    • 19,082 Thanks
    Redx
    read this

    START A NEW THREAD USING THE RED NEW THREAD BUTTON , TOP LEFT OF THIS PARKING FORUM
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 24th Nov 16, 8:00 PM
    • 2,277 Posts
    • 2,775 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    go to this link and look top left ......

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163

    and try a PC/laptop as it helps

    Ralph
    • algarveanpaddy
    • By algarveanpaddy 24th Nov 16, 10:06 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    algarveanpaddy
    newbie-flash floods & parking fine in saga format!
    I parked up at the notorious peel centre 13 Sep 2016 when it was the evening of the freaky flash floods and lightening - does anyone remember how scary it was if you were out and about in it? Anyway, I did park up near Home Bargains and paid for 0-3 hours but didn't keep the ticket & can't remember the time I parked but I am almost certain I did not exceed 3 hours but that's not the whole story. Anyway, because the weather was so freaky & lashing rain & thunder & lightening etc, I was a bit scared to drive in it and I had my twin children with me, who were scared & exhilarated at the same time as they had never seen weather like it! They were asking if we could sit it out in KFC and watch the lightening. So I thought, hell yeah, I'll treat them so I drove from that part of the car park over to KFC bypassing Currys and as far as I was concerned it was all the same car park. Anyway, weeks later I got a PCN addressed to me personally with the contravention being detected with ANPR for parking not displaying a pay and display ticket. It showed entry time as: 18:18 & exit 18:49. I ignored the letter because I thought, sod off I bloody did & I guess I was still feeling rather triumphant with having won my lengthy appeal against Bury Council for when I got my fine at ParkLife, with an adjudicator just a couple of weeks previous to this PCN. (sorry I do tend to ramble & I'm not up with the jargon on these forums). Today I got a final reminder notice with all the usual threats. My questions are I guess: is there anyway I can find out from my car reg, what time I did park in the first part of the car park? And if I have exceeded the 3 hours, well then that's one issue for me to consider what next ,but question 2, is the KFC part of the car park belonging to the the part where I purchased my original ticket? And 3, would having 2 scared young boys in freaky weather make the slightest bit of difference with these heartless scammers? I am not scared of fighting it but (quite frankly it does grind you down) I just would like to know the answers if you can help? And apologies if I have missed any of this info that may have been posted previously....
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 24th Nov 16, 10:09 PM
    • 32,376 Posts
    • 16,463 Thanks
    Quentin
    @algarveanpaddy


    See #6!!


    Start your own thread. (And edit or delete your post which tells us (and anyone from the ppc monitoring this forum) who was driving!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Nov 16, 10:09 PM
    • 13,983 Posts
    • 21,963 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Whatever that wall of text says, you're in the wrong place!

    You need to start a new thread of your own after reading the sticky on which you are currently posting.

    And if you start a new thread, please use that keyboard 'Return' button to create some paragraphs to make whatever you are writing readable.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 25th Nov 16, 9:06 AM
    • 1,914 Posts
    • 2,298 Thanks
    waamo
    this thread is for general information only.

    please do not post questions about your parking tickets in this thread.


    for personalised help and guidance from our wonderful forum regulars (for free :d) please start your own thread by clicking on this blue button:

    Originally posted by crabman
    Do not post in this thread.
    This space for hire.
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