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German electric storage radiators
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# 1
Jamesbub
Old 14-10-2011, 10:36 PM
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Default German electric storage radiators

Hi, sorry if this is wrong forum.

I am looking at these new German electric dynamic storage heaters:

'The chamotte blocks not only store heat but heat up very quickly, so electricity draw down is low, working out for many rooms from around 4p an hour. Highly controlled independent testing in the UK and Germany confirm the low running costs.
Independent tests, both in the UK and Germany, show that to heat a large living room on a cold day with a 2kw German dynamic storage radiator to a steady and comfortable 71 degrees Fahrenheit will require electricity draw down for only 17 minutes every hour. So for 8 hours of heating, that equals 2 hours and 16 minutes of power. At 12p per kilowatt hour that calculates out to just under 55p, or under 7p per hour or £3.85 per week.
But an ecomony7 night storage radiator for the same room will typically need to be 3.4kw. Seven hours at 6p per kilowatt hour will cost £1.42. So, if the room is used for the same amount of time (8 hours) the cost to keep you warm is almost 18p per hour or £10 per week.
So, if you needed to heat just one room for 8 hours each day there's an estimated saving here of £6.15 per week.'

Only use 17min every hour, are these new technological radiators the awnser then to getting very cheap heating.

I have read quite a few 'heating' companies have had ASA adjuctions upheld against them with these continental type system claims?

So, are these just normal storage radiators that are the equivalent from a british manufactor hyped up to sell?

If the claim above is correct do these draw 4 times the current to charge them compared to a traditional british storage heater during the 17 min claim?

Please set my mind at rest...thank you.

Last edited by Jamesbub; 14-10-2011 at 10:55 PM.
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# 2
HappyMJ
Old 14-10-2011, 10:46 PM
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A storage heater is not heating for the whole 7 hours. May be as little as half that. They have a thermostat and switch on and off during the night. They may also have residual heat from the previous day and they heat for 24 hours not 8. E7 electricity is also cheaper than 6p. Mine is 4.5p. Can be cheaper elsewhere. So the comparison is flawed.

Also when they say cold day just how cold is that? It would be accurate if the outside temperature was about 10 degrees that's what my cheap convector heater uses about 17 minutes per hour when it's 10 out but it would cost a lot more if it was 0 degrees outside almost 60 minutes to keep the room warm.
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# 3
Cardew
Old 14-10-2011, 11:43 PM
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Yet again this is absolute rubbish! They are not storage heaters but radiators filled with ???

A 2kW heater, is a 2kW heater and gives EXACTLY the same amount of heat as any other 2kW heater it doesn't matter if they are filled with custard and coated with platinum, or filled with platinum and coated with custard.

As said many many times, all electrical heaters are 100% efficient and produce the same amount of heat for the same running cost. This applies to any heater from the most expensive radiator costing many hundreds of pounds, to a £10 fan heater, to Granny's old 1/2/3 bar heater.

If they are filled with a substance that retains the heat when power is removed, then they take longer to produce heat - the nett result is exactly the same.
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# 4
A. Badger
Old 15-10-2011, 1:36 AM
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It's high time some of these crooks were hounded out of business.
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# 5
Jamesbub
Old 15-10-2011, 1:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardew View Post
Yet again this is absolute rubbish! They are not storage heaters but radiators filled with ???

A 2kW heater, is a 2kW heater and gives EXACTLY the same amount of heat as any other 2kW heater it doesn't matter if they are filled with custard and coated with platinum, or filled with platinum and coated with custard.

As said many many times, all electrical heaters are 100% efficient and produce the same amount of heat for the same running cost. This applies to any heater from the most expensive radiator costing many hundreds of pounds, to a £10 fan heater, to Granny's old 1/2/3 bar heater.

If they are filled with a substance that retains the heat when power is removed, then they take longer to produce heat - the nett result is exactly the same.
So this company needs reporting to the ASA then for making these illegal claims?

I know if you type in 'continental storage heaters' on the ASA adjudication site it brings up quite a few 'heating companies' who have made these claims in the past.

Many thanks Cardew, i'll inform the parents to buy 'normal' electric storage heaters.
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# 6
Mosshead
Old 21-02-2013, 9:04 PM
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Default Custard and Platinum

I realise this is an old topic.

If you fill one of the radiators with salt water and the other with fresh water the one with the salt water will warm quicker and cool slower.

I am an electrician. I found this post looking for some decent information about the performance of these heaters.

A 2KW element is a 2KW element. Any two, 2KW elements will burn the same amount of energy for the amount of time that they are switched on. (Assuming they are identical twins!)

The salt water radiator will heat quicker, which will allow the element to go off sooner. It will also cool slower which will allow the element to be off longer. The element will be on less often and for a shorter duration and as a result will consume less energy whilst maintaining the same heat.

The heat retention properties of the contents (???) of the heater make a potentially massive difference to the performance of the heater and therefore a potentially massive difference to it's efficiency (running cost.)

I have issues with storage heaters, none of them are addressed in this post.

So, is Cardew's head filled with platinum or custard?

You decide.

An extremely unhelpful and ill-informed post.
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# 7
Cardew
Old 21-02-2013, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosshead View Post
I realise this is an old topic.

If you fill one of the radiators with salt water and the other with fresh water the one with the salt water will warm quicker and cool slower.

I am an electrician. I found this post looking for some decent information about the performance of these heaters.

A 2KW element is a 2KW element. Any two, 2KW elements will burn the same amount of energy for the amount of time that they are switched on. (Assuming they are identical twins!)

The salt water radiator will heat quicker, which will allow the element to go off sooner. It will also cool slower which will allow the element to be off longer. The element will be on less often and for a shorter duration and as a result will consume less energy whilst maintaining the same heat.

The heat retention properties of the contents (???) of the heater make a potentially massive difference to the performance of the heater and therefore a potentially massive difference to it's efficiency (running cost.)

I have issues with storage heaters, none of them are addressed in this post.

So, is Cardew's head filled with platinum or custard?

You decide.

An extremely unhelpful and ill-informed post.
Welcome to the forum. Yet again a first time poster wanting to post about these type of heaters.

Your talents are wasted as a mere Electrician. You should be put up for a Nobel prize as you have just re-written the laws of physics.

Heats quicker, and cools slower?? Really?

I suppose the more salt you add to the water, the more economical the heater?

Please carry on with your contributions - we need some humour.
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# 8
Ectophile
Old 21-02-2013, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosshead View Post
An extremely unhelpful and ill-informed post.
I'd certainly agree with that!

So is the specific heat capacity of salt water higher or lower than that of fresh water?
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# 9
Andy_WSM
Old 22-02-2013, 8:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosshead View Post

A 2KW element is a 2KW element. Any two, 2KW elements will burn the same amount of energy for the amount of time that they are switched on. (Assuming they are identical twins!)

The salt water radiator will heat quicker, which will allow the element to go off sooner.
Can't you see the contradiction in your own post?

Where does the extra energy come from to heat the salt water radiator quicker? You say yourself the 2 elements will burn the same amount of energy. The heat IS the energy.

If you could create energy in this way we wouldn't be worried about fossil fuels running out!
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# 10
Mosshead
Old 22-02-2013, 9:08 AM
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Default Ènergy/Heat

There is no extra energy, the extra HEAT comes from the physical properties of whatever material you fill the heater with.

Seriously guys... you are beginning to worry me!
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# 11
macman
Old 22-02-2013, 9:10 AM
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Fill it with what you like: water, oil, bricks, custard, or magic German ectoplasm, it's still just a heat sink. It does not increase the amount of heat produced per kWh of electricity used.
All it does it modify the rate of heat release.
No free lunch, and no free laptop
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# 12
Cardew
Old 22-02-2013, 9:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosshead View Post

If you are going to respond, please try to tell me why one heater cannot be more efficient than another.

I think most of us 'seasoned posters' - as you put it - are aware of your aim in posting.

Also I am quite sure you know the answer to your question; however in case any newbie thinks your nonsense has any validity they should turn to one Albert Einstein who famously concluded:

Quote:
“Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.”
Therefore if any heater is supplied with electrical energy it will convert that energy to heat(measured in calories/BTu/Joules). Regardless of the type of heater, for a specific input, the output of heat will be the same. They are all 100% efficient at turning electricity into heat.

The above holds true for a radiator filled with platinum, custard, salt water(with a solution of any density!) or any substance known to man.

For example an oil filled radiator will retain heat longer than a water filled radiator, but it will take longer for the oil to heat up. Thus for consumption of, say, 1kWh of electricity the output of heat will be exactly the same.

The sillyness in Mosshead's original statement, compounded in his second post, stems from this:

Quote:
The salt water radiator will heat quicker, which will allow the element to go off sooner. It will also cool slower which will allow the element to be off longer.
A radiator is designed to have a surface area that will dissipate all of the heat the element can produce. Put, say, a 1kW radiator outside on a cold day and it will draw continuously 1kW as the thermostat will never operate

He seems to think that the thermostat on a radiator is operated by the temperature of the medium with which it is filled(salt water in this case) rather than the ambient temperature of the room.
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# 13
Mosshead
Old 22-02-2013, 9:55 AM
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Default Ènergy/Heat

There is no extra energy burned, there is extra energy stored which is released in the form of HEAT which is retained thanks to the physical properties of whatever material you fill the heater with.

Seriously guys... you are beginning to worry me!
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# 14
Andy_WSM
Old 22-02-2013, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosshead View Post
There is no extra energy burned, there is extra energy stored which is released in the form of HEAT which is retained thanks to the physical properties of whatever material you fill the heater with.

Seriously guys... you are beginning to worry me!
I call TROLL - and I'm not a "seasoned poster".
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# 15
macman
Old 22-02-2013, 1:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosshead View Post
There is no extra energy burned, there is extra energy stored which is released in the form of HEAT which is retained thanks to the physical properties of whatever material you fill the heater with.

Seriously guys... you are beginning to worry me!
So please explain how 'extra energy' can be stored and later released (in the form of heat), without 'extra energy' being consumed (in the form of electricity) in the first place?
Or are you suggesting that Mr A. Einstein was barking up the wrong tree entirely?
But if you can demonstrate that the First Law of Thermodynamics is a complete red herring, I'll happily dash out and buy a large drum of custard powder...
No free lunch, and no free laptop

Last edited by macman; 22-02-2013 at 3:57 PM.
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# 16
Mosshead
Old 23-02-2013, 2:07 AM
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Default E-jits

So... just heat your room with a bowl of custard then.

Good luck.

The usual, paranoid 'I think the poster's motive's are pretty clear' (or whatever it was you said) would have been in my predictive response by the way. None of you would know a wind up if it came up and tattooed 'I am a wind up' on your erse.

I reiterate... I searched Google for some info on 'efficient German storage heaters' and was directed here.

If you think I have nothing better to do with my time than irritate irritating people then you all (20 billion + posters) are sadly mistaken.

I am none the wiser.

So well done.

That E-jit(s) thing was my own by the way. It will be all over the web in six months by frustrated forum visitors like myself.

At least you can claim to be the first E-jit(s)

You have contributed nothing useful to my quandary.

Tell me why I should or shouldn't buy these heaters.

My decision has already been made but I would genuinely be interested in any measured input...
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# 17
Mosshead
Old 23-02-2013, 2:45 AM
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The heater elements burn electrical energy which is released as heat.

If you release this heat into the air it will cool in the air dependant on the ambient temperature of the air.

If you release this energy into a medium with heat retaining properties then that medium will store the heat (energy) for longer than the cool air of the room.

If you reheat that medium, you will keep it warm and radiate heat (into the air) much more efficiently than you would if you just draw the air into the heater, heat it over the element and blow it away over an instantaneous convector heater (into the cold air of the space.)

It is ridiculous to say that every heater is as efficient as the next one... ie. 100%

Heating elements are 100% efficient in that they burn exactly the amount of energy that it says on the tin.

Heaters however, can release this energy in the real world in a more or less efficient (and useful or more cost effective) manner entirely dependent on whether they are filled with custard or platinum.

I would suggest that if you could get some platinum filled radiators, you would have some pretty damn, efficient radiators... barring the cost of the bricks!
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# 18
Cknocker
Old 23-02-2013, 3:06 AM
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No you would have a heater that heats up quick and cools down quick although it would make far more sense to make the platinum heater out of tin or lead, which broadly have the same thermal properties as platinum at a fraction of the cost! Of course you would be well advised not to touch or put any soft furnishings near said heater!

Going to efficiency, unless some heaters don't release all the heat energy put into them, they are all 100% efficient in releasing energy i.e. what goes in comes out - it would be a strange world if they didn't do this though as they would have to get hotter and hotter but not release any more heat - a bit of a paradox.

Last edited by Cknocker; 23-02-2013 at 3:11 AM.
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# 19
TiredGeek
Old 23-02-2013, 1:05 PM
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If you put 2kwh of electric into an element you get 2kw of heat out, that's it. 100% efficient.

If you let out that 2kw of heat straight into the air it will raise the temperature of that air by several degrees over a short period of time.
If you store that heat in salt water or custard the heat will be released over a longer period of time (dependant on the specific heat capacity of each), but the air temperature will not rise as high.

It's the same 2kw, it just takes longer to release it.

ALL electric element heaters are 100% efficient, all release 100% of the energy put in.
It's up to you if you want to warm a room quickly by using a fan heater of 2kw or warm it slowly (to a lower temperature) with a storage medium holding 2kw.

If you don't like the answers you get and have convinced yourself you know best, don't bother asking the "E-Jit(s)" on here for advice.
All I know is you're gonna be pretty famous and super rich very soon if you've managed to prove the German patents clerk wrong
A pair of 14kw Ecodans & 39 radiators in a big old farm house in the frozen north
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# 20
TiredGeek
Old 23-02-2013, 1:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosshead View Post
Seriously guys... you are beginning to worry me!
This from a sparky, ROTFL
Don't forget to insulate any cut wires to stop the electric from spilling out the end.....
A pair of 14kw Ecodans & 39 radiators in a big old farm house in the frozen north
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