Retirement Flat - Energy advice

We have just purchased a small ( 47 sq mtr) one bedroom 2nd floor , centrally situated retirement flat in town centre. Purpose built block in 1998 - original heating/water system. No gas.
The flat has two old and ugly yellowing ! original storage heaters , one in bedroom and one in lounge - Creda Slimline combi. The heating I think has been Economy 7 tariff. There is a large super seven hot water / immersion tank in hall cupboard.

The flat needs total refurb. and we really would like any advice please regarding the best heating /hot water system to use regarding economy, efficiency and aesthetics if possible.
The bathroom has a shower over the bath ; a number of the other flats have replaced bath with electric shower.

I assume with the present heating system that the night storage heaters heat the hot water in the tank? We have always had gas ; all electric is completely new to us.

Possibly usually for a retirement flat, the flat will be unoccupied and empty for frequent weeks of the year . Possibly up to 4 months out of 12 but split over the year. It will be checked whilst we are away.

The hot water tank in a very useful storage cupboard takes up a lot of room and we would like to get rid of the if its a sensible options.



The storage heaters are 20 years old - should we replace ? - Dimplex Quantum ??

Thoughts are to replace the bath and over shower with electric shower - if there is sufficient water pressure ?

Thoughts are to install Quooker Combi or Grohe Red Instant boiling water tap in kitchen to facilitate all needs - yes very expensive item but again might help get rid of huge hot water tank ?

This would only leave sink in bathroom with no hot water which we could live with.

We are only in our early 60s and fit and very active; want to try and avoid an overheated environment. The block is very warm anyway.



Grateful for any advice please. Thank you
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Comments

  • CashStrapped
    CashStrapped Posts: 1,294 Forumite
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    edited 3 March 2018 at 11:34PM
    You seem to have considered your options pretty well.

    For any all electric property it should be E7 with storage heaters.
    Unless your lifestyle means you use the property infrequently this is the cheapest way to heat it.

    If the current storage heaters are aesthetically offensive, then replacement with modern storage heaters, quantum or otherwise, should be the only option you consider (in terms of all electric). Quantum sell themselves on having more automation (so the best input level is selected), better insulation, so heat is stored for longer (i.e they give out the stored heat over a larger portion of the next day), they also may have a top up that uses expensive day rate (you don't really want to use this).

    If, however, you are happy to set on monitor storage heaters yourself, manually, then standard storage heaters may be the most cost-effective replacement. They should be much cheaper than a quantum storage heater. They just require a bit more manual input.

    The most cost effective solution is to keep the existing ones, as despite their looks, there is probably nothing wrong with them. It is just an option to consider.

    ----

    Losing the tank would mean no water heated on the cheap rate. If, as you say, you are aware and can live with that, so be it.

    An electric shower and an electric hot water tap, while using day rate, should actually be a lot cheaper to run (minus the cost of the expensive hot tap). I know someone who just does not use the E7 tank, and lives quite happily like this. They just use the electric shower and the kettle. It is far cheaper than them heating a 150 litre tank of water they do not use (even if heated on E7 rates).

    ----

    The final option is considering the installation of gas central heating via a combi boiler. This would be best best solution in terms of convenience, ease of operation and the ability to have hot water without a tank. There is the higher upfront cost, and the consideration of getting a gas mains connection installed. You also have annual servicing. But, it does fit with your requirements.

    This may not even be possible if you live in part of a complex, but again, an option to consider.

    ----

    Do not fall foul of any companies marketing super energy efficient heaters with "german clay cores". These heaters, while looking attractive, use the expensive day rate electricity. The system will cost the earth to run and they are usually hugely overpriced. Basically, avoid any company in which a salesperson has to attend.
  • Wow first time posting here , thank you for such a quick response.
    Gas is not an option unfortunately .
    We would love to get rid of tank if electric shower and hot water tap are feasible alternatives - will have to check water pressure ; hard water etc . The last thing we want is expensive installations rendered useless by too low pressure or hard water problems ( i think Quooker taps wont tolerate hard water ?) . Trying to make efficient /future proofed decisions at early stage to avoid future expense .
    yes you are probably right about storage heaters - could I put radiator covers over then without effecting the heat output to room.
  • CashStrapped
    CashStrapped Posts: 1,294 Forumite
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    edited 3 March 2018 at 11:55PM
    If you have a hot water tank at the moment, it is probably an old fashioned vented type with a cold water store at the top. Is there a loose lid on the top?

    If the hot water pressure is super low, and the cold water is good pressure, this supports that theory. This is because the hot water pressure is determined by gravity and the height of the top of the tank.

    The issue arises about what the plumber does with the hot feeds, if you want rid of the tank. He will just have to branch of the cold mains, meaning you just have cold taps all round.

    Another option is to get a small slimline pressurised storage tank. This means hot water will be at high pressure. It would also mean you could have a decent normal shower (not a direct electric one) fed from a tank that stored a smaller amount of water at E7 rates.

    Edit: Something like this, it is only 55cm in diameter and 71cm high - 90litres.

    http://www.directheatingsupplies.co.uk/range-tribune-90-litre-direct-td90-unvented-cylinder

    ---

    A fancy cover may interrupt the convection of the heat a bit. But as long as there was enough grills in it, it may be acceptable. Testing it is the only way.
  • Thank you again
    Hot water tank has no loose lid on top - 1998 was when flat was built . Just a huge copper tank solid coating of green coloured hard foam ? various pipes in and out . I have pic but trying to work out how to get a url on my mac ? Flat is on 2nd floor of 4 - no idea where the tank would be to gravity feed but certainly not directly above - on roof or 4th floor loft ?
  • CashStrapped
    CashStrapped Posts: 1,294 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited 4 March 2018 at 12:20AM
    No, that is the point, in a gravity system like that, you would normally have cold tanks in the loft on the floor above and the hot water cylinder the floor below. The height difference between the two is what gives the hot water it's pressure...due to gravity.

    In those installed in flats, that loose lid on top IS the cold water tank. it is combined into one cylinder with the hot water store under it. That is why it is so big.

    So in terms of hot water pressure, it is determined by the distance from the top of that tank, to the bottom. Hence why your hot water pressure is probably pants.

    You cold water will be direct mains pressure though.
    ----

    A pressurised tank means that a cold water storage tank is not needed. Meaning the tank can be smaller and the hot water will be at mains pressure too.
  • boliston
    boliston Posts: 3,012 Forumite
    First Anniversary Photogenic First Post Combo Breaker
    an alternative to storage heaters that still uses an E7 tariff is a "thermal storage" system like gledhill pulsacoil as this gives both mains pressure hot water and hot water for radiators https://www.gledhill.net/products/thermal-storage/pulsacoil-eco-stainless/
  • yes after checking it seems like i do have a vented cylinder ( insulated with polyuthane)
  • Anthorn
    Anthorn Posts: 4,362 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    I have personal experience of sheltered retirement flats in two locations in Northamptonshire and Cambridgeshire. Both of them were all electric because there was no gas coming into the property. Could that be the reason why gas is not feasible?

    My new home although a retirement flat, is not sheltered and has both gas and electric. My current energy installations were the result of a home energy survey which I paid for and a water survey by the water company which was free. What I have briefly is a gas combi boiler which provides heating to radiators in every room and hot water taps on demand and an electric shower. Walls and loft in the block were already insulated and solar panels on the roof provide lighting for communal areas which offsets against the annual charges.

    For me the home energy survey was useful because I had expert advice on what to install with qualified contractors to do the work and the free water survey by my local water company was even better. The water survey also recommended an electric shower and sort of underlined the findings of the home energy survey,

    I especially recommend the free water survey if your local water company provides one. They came back to my home after the electric shower was fitted and for free fitted a new shower head which increased the pressure without increasing the supply of water to the shower and also fitted for free a bucket thingy (no brand name on it) in the cistern which cut down on the amount of water in the cistern. They say they will also do an annual water survey also for free.

    Also check with your local council on the possibility of grants which support making your home more energy efficient.

    Anyway that's my personal experience which I hope you find useful.
  • CashStrapped
    CashStrapped Posts: 1,294 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    @boliston - That pulsacoil is certainly option. The only downside to it is that I have read a lot of anecdotal reports that the system is very unreliable. It is a bit more complex than a standard cylinder hence it seems there is more to go wrong.

    A normal small cylinder is lighter when empty, so normally easier to initially install, but seems to require a more specialised installation. It is also simpler in operation so less to go wrong over it's lifetime. It will require services/checks due to it's pressurised nature. So both seem to have pros and cons.

    ----

    @ Anthorn

    Some of the things you mention interest me.

    Was the free water survey to save water?

    The shower head you mention will not increase the pressure. But, it may do one of two things.

    Be less restrictive, therefore allow more water to flow and in turn use more water and give a better shower.

    Or

    Have a water saving device, which is more restrictive, uses less water but gives a fine/faster spray, giving the impression of a better shower (kind of like putting your thumb on the end of a hose).

    ---

    Also, I am interested as to why, in a house with a combi boiler you have an electric shower. The electric shower will be more costly to run than a shower directly off the combi. A combi should have enough flow and be at mains pressure. This will give you a very good shower using gas as the heat source.

    Granted, the cost of ripping the electric shower out and installing a shower fed from the combi may be more trouble than it is worth, especially in cost. But I thought I would point that out.

    I am also interested, what did the energy survey say about the electric heating you had in the original retirement home? What set-up was it?

    You also say you paid for an energy survey? Was it to get an EPC rating? How much did you pay and who carried it out?
  • Anthorn
    Anthorn Posts: 4,362 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited 4 March 2018 at 5:26PM
    @CashStrapped

    Water survey to check that I was economical as possible in using water and paying for it. It included the fitting of a water meter and a guarantee that if the water bill was more than I would have paid on the flat rate I could return to the flat rate within 2 years. The supplier is Anglian Water.

    The shower head is adjustable and the shower has a slow and fast rate of flow. The shower head can be adjusted to also provide a rate of flow without adjusting the shower rate of flow. The shower brand is Mira Advance.

    In my two previous homes which were sheltered housing the heating and hot water was communal at a cost of £51 per month for the first and £57 per month for the second. That contrasts with my current cost for gas for heating, hot water and cooking of £36 per month and for electricity for showers and lighting of £15 per month making the total for dual fuel of £46 per month averaged over a year on Scottish Power Super Saver Dec 1918. However MSE CEC for my usage calculates £41 per month. That makes me below the level of a low user.

    I don't know the answers to the rest of the questions. I simply used the companies listed in a local council information sheet
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