Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?
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brandeberryj wrote: »They freeze it by the way ..
NO, they don't! That would be uneconomic ("stupid", if you prefer).
There's a clue in that the carriers are called LNG carriers, not SNG carriers.
Speakeasy has already posted (#662) "I think the Natural Gas is liquefied at extremely low temperature (and small control of pressure) for shipping in the tankers and then restored to a gas at some stage at the other end."
In post #61 you wrotebrandeberryj wrote: »Ignoring the fact thats exactly what they do with Natural gas when they transport it from the midlle east. ..
to 'correct' DAVID.T's post:No Sorry, shale gas is a type of natural gas and as such would need a huge pressure to turn it to liquid. ...
'Natural gas' - mains gas - is mostly methane (CH4); 'shale gas' is mostly methane. Methane boils at -161 degrees Celsius, and freezes at -296.5 degrees Celsius. As Speakeasy has written, LNG carriers are basically ships with several large thermos flasks - with the methane at a couple of degrees beow the boiling point, but under little pressure. The UK has been importing LNG since the 1960s - but much more since the country became a net importer of gas for the mains grid.
Anyway, DAVID.T has suggested all this does not have much with the price of LPG, and personally I think - since 1) he is in the gas industry and 2) I've read his posts - I'll respect his opinion.0 -
This is interesting and talks about CNG carriers being developed but remains to be seen if will compete with well established LNG carriers. LPG and the ease with which it can be maintained as a liquid is also mentioned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNG_carrier
Here is a bit more on the subject:
http://www.demo2000.no/filearchive/pdf/cng_by_ship__technology_status_and_challenges.pdf
Don't think that it will affect how we get gas to the house though.0 -
Just one last question and this subject is probably exhausted. LPG is a byproduct of the distillation of petroleum.
It also can be extracted from Natural Gas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas
A flow diagram is included and there is an arrow which says in red "To sales gas pipeline". By my way of thinking that does not necessarly mean that the gas is ready for domestic use.
The question therefore is, does domestic Natural Gas always necessarily have the Propane and Butane taken out or just some of the time (as necessary for LPG demand)? If all of LPG production is a byproduct, then you would think that it would be relatively cheap.0 -
Just one last question and this subject is probably exhausted. LPG is a byproduct of the distillation of petroleum.
It also can be extracted from Natural Gas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas
A flow diagram is included and there is an arrow which says in red "To sales gas pipeline". By my way of thinking that does not necessarly mean that the gas is ready for domestic use.
The question therefore is, does domestic Natural Gas always necessarily have the Propane and Butune taken out or just some of the time (as necessary for LPG demand)? If all of LPG production is a byproduct, then you would think that it would be relatively cheap.
"To sales gas pipeline" ... with a smell added as methane is odourless. They did not need to add a smell to 'town gas'!
Natural Gas either comes from gas fields or from oilfields where it is associated with crude (on top - a 'gas cap' - and dissolved in the oil). A small but variable percentage of natural gas from a gas field is ethane (two carbons - i.e. C2H6 - whereas methane has one carbon, so CH4)- and nowadays this is also removed (as a chemical feedstock) before the natural gas is put into the mains. Propane (3 carbons) and butane (4 carbons) mostly come from crude - which is a mix of a range of hydrocarbons (up to about C25 - paraffin wax - a solid). Lighter crudes are more valuable - especially if low in sulfur.
As you say, LPG (the Liquefied Petroleum Gases, propane and butane) is a by-product - "Go out and sell!" ... so you'd expect it to cost not much more than distribution costs!This is interesting and talks about CNG carriers being developed but remains to be seen if will compete with well established LNG carriers. LPG and the ease with which it can be maintained as a liquid is also mentioned......
No CNG carriers yet - I believe. And I doubt if they'd be carrying solid methane (i.e. frozen)!
Ease of keeping LPG as a liquid depends on the two gases's high boiling point - especially compared to methane. The 'next' hydrocarbon - pentane (with 5 carbons) - is a liquid at room temperature.0 -
Thanks for that info. LittleVermin. So we can take it that the majority of sources of Natural Gas, the Propane and Butane is taken out before the Natural Gas (mainly Methane) goes for domestic consumption. The main thing is that the LPG is a byproduct and as you say, the cost should be not more than distribution.
When reading up on the CNG carriers, I did not envisage that the gas might be frozen although there seems to be different methods (pressures/temperatures etc.) used. I am not that interested in wading through it all (laughing)0 -
When reading up on the CNG carriers, I did not envisage that the gas might be frozen although there seems to be different methods (pressures/temperatures etc.) used.
Apologies, Speakeasy - badly worded by me. I realise you wouldn't be envisaging CNG carriers full of solid methane ... but I thought I ought to make the point in the light of another post. A pre-emptive correction, if you like!0 -
brandeberryj, do you actually read this forum, or do you just flame random posts for sport?
I am not talking about groundworks or pipework, I am talking about payments to the LPG supply company for them to install the tank. Granted, "often" may have been a bad choice of word here, but although it is not, by any means universal practice, it does happen, especially in respect of underground tanks!
brandeberryj, do you actually read this forum, or do you just flame random posts for sport?
When did you last see anyone quoted £60 for tank rental when signing a new contract? In the last few months, this has leapt to typically £100 p.a., and in one case, £170 p.a. Try following the forum!
brandeberryj, do you actually read this forum, or do you just flame random posts for sport?
Well if you're not sure of that, what was your point? I was only quoting what I have been told by engineers from both Calor and Shell.
brandeberryj, do you actually read this forum, or do you just flame random posts for sport?
I have already posted (twice) on that and accept that my figures (based on typical figures quoted by users in this forum) were too high . In fact, David's figures, as is now apparent were not made up, but were pretty realistic. If you bother to read my previous post on this, you will see how I came to the conclusion that David's figure of 2,500l was more or less correct.
brandeberryj, do you actually read this forum, or do you just flame random posts for sport?
Do you really think that your standing charge will remain at the same level for the entire duration of your contract? And anyway, tank installation is a necessary cost of sale - they are not (or shouldn't be) in the business of making the money back from the tank. They make their money on the LPG that sell you to they put in the tank. Provided they can cover the cost of the tank, then they are well up on the deal! (It's called opportunity cost, BTW)
No doubt, I will get a typically abusive response to this!
I am a new user to LPG, and when I was at quote stage I was told the rental for the aboveground tank was £60.00 per annum, underground £100.00 per annum, difference apparently the below ground tank needs annual "cathodic" testing, this is why maybe some of you are finding it difficult to switch,lack of testing ????0 -
I am a new user to LPG, and when I was at quote stage I was told the rental for the aboveground tank was £60.00 per annum, underground £100.00 per annum, difference apparently the below ground tank needs annual "cathodic" testing, this is why maybe some of you are finding it difficult to switch,lack of testing ????
Welcome to the forum.
Thanks for the info. I guess you've just had LPG installed? Would you tell us who by - and how much you pay, and other contract details, please? (And the area/region/county where you live).
On Monday, DAVID.T, who's in the industry, may be able to enlighten us all .. maybe there is something new in the LPG codes of practice - or even an update of the gas use regs.
Most of us would seem to have above ground tanks - and no problems switching (well, a few horror stories from one or two companies, but most seem to be abiding by the Competition Commission LPG Order - but there are maybe 150 people on the forum over the last year, out of maybe 150,000 domestic LPG users).0 -
LittleVermin wrote: »Welcome to the forum.
Thanks for the info. I guess you've just had LPG installed? Would you tell us who by - and how much you pay, and other contract details, please? (And the area/region/county where you live).
On Monday, DAVID.T, who's in the industry, may be able to enlighten us all .. maybe there is something new in the LPG codes of practice - or even an update of the gas use regs.
Most of us would seem to have above ground tanks - and no problems switching (well, a few horror stories from one or two companies, but most seem to be abiding by the Competition Commission LPG Order - but there are maybe 150 people on the forum over the last year, out of maybe 150,000 domestic LPG users).
Hi,
All underground tanks have to receive an annual cathodic protection test. When the tank is installed they insert sacrificial annodes in the ground which somehow (witchcraft I think!) stops the tank rusting in the ground. The annual test shows these are still working. So from a gas company point of view they are a bit of a pain to look after so rental is more.
Should not cause any problems to stop you swapping in any way.
One other thing if you have an underground tank and it has snowed put something to show the tanker driver where the tank lid is!!!!0 -
LittleVermin wrote: »NO, they don't! That would be uneconomic ("stupid", if you prefer).
Ohh who has got a little hump on? Implying someone is stupid is hardly reasonable dialogue?
LittleVermin wrote: »There's a clue in that the carriers are called LNG carriers, not SNG carriers.
I meant cool it so it liquefies which I am sure you know that’s what I meant. There would be little point freezing it as it would take up more or less the same space. Really quite childish to imply I am stupid for not quite explain myself correctlyLittleVermin wrote: »
Speakeasy has already posted (#662) "I think the Natural Gas is liquefied at extremely low temperature (and small control of pressure) for shipping in the tankers and then restored to a gas at some stage at the other end.").
LittleVermin wrote: »Anyway, DAVID.T has suggested all this does not have much with the price of LPG, and personally I think - since 1) he is in the gas industry and 2) I've read his posts - I'll respect his opinion.
I 100% disagree with this. I believe that all fuel markets are affected by the price of another fuel, even if they are not directly linked or am I just being stupid?? I suppose "doing economics" at University means I don't know what I am talking about???0
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