Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Regarding pipework - I'm absolutely no expert, but one of the engineers I spoke to in the last few days pointed out that the issue with the pipework was to do with industrial rather than domestic dwellings. There was an explosion a few years ago (2004) when LPG leaked from an underground metal pipe into the empty basement of a factory. This gas then ignited, leading to the explosion. His view was that this scenario was most unlikely to occur in a domestic installation.

Having said that, you can find the story by putting "lord gill lpg explosion" into Google (http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2009/e09057.htm). From what I've found on the web, the HSE (health and safety exec) were apparently working with the LPG industry to get all these pipes replaced -

From 16-Jul-2009 - "HSE has already done a great deal since the accident at ICL Plastics, especially in preparing for a comprehensive programme by the UK LPG suppliers for buried metal pipe work to be replaced with newer and more robust plastic pipes. The UKLPG industry signed up to the replacement plan in June this year and work has already started, ramping up in October, following preparatory data collection, risk assessments and a promotional campaign to alert duty holders to the need to take action. This will be taken forward with the added benefit of Lord Gill's report."

Timetable agreed for LPG pipework replacement programme
(http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2009/e09049.htm)
Press release - 30 June, 2009
"This was a terrible tragedy and lessons have been learned. We are well on the way to introducing new industry practices which will further lessen the risk of such an incident happening again.

"We have worked hard with the LPG suppliers and their trade association UKLPG to develop a plan to replace the pipes, using a risk-based approach to tackle the ones which pose the greatest risk first.

I'm investigating separately whether 'non-compliance with building regs' is sufficient reason for suppliers to upgrade their equipment and will post here as soon as I've got the info. However reading the HSE statement, I would contact your supplier and refer them to this quote, and ask them when they intend to replace your pipes! Worth a try anyway, and please let us know how you get on.

Hope this helps!

By the way, rocking the boat is an absolute must in the case of the LPG supply industry.

longforgotten wrote: »

Fleurh, just read the recent posts after 'pm' to you.

Countrywide took on our tank back in 2009. The tank has been in the same spot for about twenty years. I think there may well be issues with its siting now there are new regs but Countrywide are still delivering and I'm happy with that. Also its copper piping from the tank to the house so thats wrong too I now understand.

How worried should I be that the piping is not plastic ?

Should I rock the boat and ask Countrywide to 'update' where necessary ?

At the mo I'm happy in my ignorance ......

fleurh wrote: »

Got a few updates for the forum on the tank siting issues problem (post# 1476).

Reminder of our tank issues:
a) safety cut-off valves corroded, no longer working
b) service pipe metal, building regs require plastic
c) position of tanks too close to property boundary, wooden fence, and over-hanging leylandii hedges - building regs require 3M clearance from flammable boundary


1) reply from Sharon at OFT:
Sharon identifies two avenues to pursue, which have also been pointed out by other posters to the forum.





The way I interpret this is that, although I might have a case with Calor wrt the non-functioning safety valves, there's no point in getting them just to repair these as the tank siting issue and connecting pipe are just as important, and it would appear that regardless of non-compliance the customer has to pay for cost and installation of a new tank - the supplier's only liability is to remove the old non-compliant one.

I've emailed Sharon to get clarification on whether 'maintenance' includes 'compliance with (revised) building regs' and will report back as soon as I've got a reply from her.

2) Calor response

Calor have finally responded after I contacted their Customer Services, very apologetic about not acting on my letter to them 2 months ago, and have proposed that in order to keep us as customers, we are treated as if we were 'new' - which translates into an offer to remove the old tanks, provide a new 1200 ltr tank re-sited according to building regs, and relay the pipework to the house.

We would have to provide the concrete pad if necessary, and sign up to a new 2 year contract, but Calor will cover everything else. Calor have confirmed they would look to match whatever deal I can get with other suppliers - we discussed 45ppl fixed for 6 months, which would be an improvement on the 56.4ppl I'm paying them at the moment, especially if I can also get them to introduce some sort of cap or break contract clause if they hike the price too far.

I'm waiting to hear back from Countrywide on what they offer, and Avanti are sending out a rep next week. I'm thinking I'd prefer to go with Countrywide if they can include a new tank in the deal, as they are still a small independent, though as has also been pointed out they are now aligned with Flogas, which may affect how they operate.

I'll post separately on my investigations on what suppliers are available in our area - it is not a good story sadly, we are not as well served as those of you lucky enough to live in the Midlands or Wales or the North West!

This is exactly what happened with myself and Calor last year. I had an 'illegally sited tank' under a 11kV power line. I 'persuaded' them to relocate a new tank in a 'safe position' and they put in new plastic pipework to the house. I did have to pay for a new concrete base (£100).

Of course they then screwed up on the pricing and broke the price cap clause in the contract. They wouldn't back down, so I have now changed supplier and have a nice new legal tank and pipework, which will enable me to change supplier again in the future - should I ever need to.

Good luck!

Just to remind you of my post in December last year:

"Received a reply from Charles Hendry's department regarding my elderly neighbour. As part of the response, here is what they say about the regulations on tank siting:

"There is no specific health and safety legislation that applies to the position of tanks on domestic premises (in contrast to Health and Safety Executive (HSE) regulations for commercial premises).! The LPG industry work to their own standards (UKLPG 'CoP 1') for domestic premises that have been around for many years."

As part of my recent negotiations with Flogas, they revealed that the industry is under considerable pressure to rectify non compliant domestic tanks. Apparently ( and I have no way of verifying this) on the back of the commercial inspections the HSE have carried out in the wake of the 2004 Glasgow explosion, they've also discovered, surprisingly (!) that a lot of domestic tanks are iffy as well. 2013 has been mooted as a key date ( though not clear for what), but it may well explain why there is starting to be so much discussion in this forum about non compliant tanks. There was a big meeting in October last year ( reported on LPG industry website) between the Chief Exec of the HSE and the LPG industry bigwigs. This fits in with the discussion I had with my Flogas contact.

mbday wrote: »

Just to remind you of my post in December last year: <snip>

2013 has been mooted as a key date ( though not clear for what), but it may well explain why there is starting to be so much discussion in this forum about non compliant tanks. There was a big meeting in October last year ( reported on LPG industry website) between the Chief Exec of the HSE and the LPG industry bigwigs. This fits in with the discussion I had with my Flogas contact.

I didn't post at the time but I talked to an independent supplier shortly after that meeting and I believe the meeting was about supplies to commercial premises - which are covered by HSE.

It's after 6.30pm on Friday so I've no way of checking until next week .... so probably not useful to post any discussions on this.

Ace_gas_guzzler wrote: »

The best current offer I have is from Avanti at 41.9p per litre fixed for 12 months, or 40.9p fixed for 6 months. HateLPG and LittleVermin have been a huge help with their input on prices and obviously are very knowledgeable regarding the workings of the market. So, if you, or anyone else has any advice, please pass it on! For instance, is the market price likely to reduce further or is it about to shoot up again? There seem to be mixed opinions regarding Avanti - should I beware, or accept their offer with open arms? Callow have also offered a good deal (42p per litre fixed to end of Dec). Good to deal with? Many thanks in anticipation of your replies!

Without trying to sound facetious, if I could accurately call the prices of LPG three months down the line (let alone two years) I'd seriously consider going into the LPG supply business!

What I would say, though, is that of all the deals that you have on the table, I would be most tempted by the 41.9ppl fixed for 12 months. That actually seems a pretty good price to me in the current climate, and more importantly, if you look at the wholesale pricing figures (here) you will see that prices most commonly spike between about October and February and more to the point they almost always do spike sometime during those winter months. The 40.9ppl for 6 months or 42ppl fixed until December deals aren't going to give you any protection against that.

Also, (check this on any contract you are offered before signing) I think Avanti work on a 5ppl in any 6 month period increase. If prices go crazy again while you are on your fixed term, they will most likely (and to be honest, probably justifiably) try to hit you with a contract-busting price rise to re-align you with current market prices. But as you are aware of the contractual smallprint, you will then at least be able to shop around and see what other, possibly more attractive, deals may available at that time (and you may decide that the new price is still pretty competitive and stick with it anyway).

Of course, it all depends on your usage, and when you will expect to need deliveries. If you think you will, say, need two deliveries between now and Christmas, and then nothing more until this time next year, you may be better off going for the Callow fixed until December offer. But remember, if you go for the Avanti 6-month fix and they increase by the maximum each 6 months (assuming 5ppl/6 months) then at the end of the term, you could end up paying as much as 55.9ppl for your "final" fill (worst case) whereas on the 12 month fix, the maximum would be 51.9ppl.

One thing to note: that the last time wholesale prices were as low as they are now, Shell (now Avanti) were offering deals in the low to mid 30ppl bracket. Given that the actual cost of supply (i.e. the cost of fuelling and running trucks and all the other various overheads) has risen quite sharply in the last 18 months to 2 years, I doubt you'll find anything significantly better than you already have. And all though they may ease downwards a penny or two, I very much doubt prices will drop much more than that before rising again.

As far as dealings with Avanti go, I am with them and I would say the jury is still out. I found Shell very good to deal with and I believe Avanti bought the entire operation and kept on most of the existing staff. I haven't yet had need or opportunity to test Avanti's customer service or general approach, so I can report nothing significant either positive or negative in that respect. Of course, I got whacked with significant price rises earlier this year (who didn't). I'm not due a delivery for a while yet, so the true test will be what happens in respect of the cost of that now that wholesale prices have fallen.

As far as Callow Gas go, I hove no experience at all, but I think one or two other people have posted favourable things about them. As an independent, the general concensus here seems to be that you are likely to be treated more fairly, and you are far more likley to get any reductions passed on to you more swiftly.