MSE News: Confusion reigns as student fees fear takes hold

Former_MSE_Helen · 9 November 2011 at 11:52AM

This is the discussion thread for the following MSE News Story:

"Poll results reveal lack of understanding over new tuition fees, as many expected to hit the streets today in protest ..."

Read the full story:

Confusion reigns as student fees fear takes hold

michaels · 9 November 2011 at 12:20PM

I always laugh (what else can you do) - what is being introduced is basically a graduate tax, something the Tories never wanted and the Lib Dems until a few years ago were in favour of.

And yet politically it has been presented as a fees system which it isn't to satisfy Tory back benchers who haven't got what they want and meanwhile the Libdems are being crucified in the polls even though they have got something they were broadly in favour off.

The reason the Tories are in favour of fees is that they should encourage students to choose degrees on the basis of their value in employment and colleges to innovate to compete on fees - in fact this won't happen as almost all courses cost the same.

As I say, you have to laugh because otherwise you would cry.

callum9999 · 9 November 2011 at 12:39PM

I would hardly call that a shambles. I would describe it as the typical mentality people in this country (and probably many others) have of moaning about something while putting absolutely no effort into finding out anything about it.

The information is out there, and if these (prospective) students are incapable of finding it before travelling across the country to protest against it - are these really the sorts of people we would want to be paying to go to university for anyway? If they can't find information about something they are seemingly so passionate about, how on earth are they going to cope with researching topics they will likely have little interest in once at university?

It's all well and good moaning about how communication should be clearer, but short of forcing everyone going to the demo to read the website about it beforehand, what else should they do? If they make a speech or release a press release on the matter, the average student will just completely ignore it (probably under some guise of "politicians are always lying anyway").

Paulgonnabedebtfree · 9 November 2011 at 12:43PM

I imagine that the legislation has covered this possible loophole but have wondered how someone might be affected if they set up a limited company straight after university.
e.g. drawing a salary of under £21k for the next 30 years but leaving profits in the company, living in the "company owned" house, driving the "company owned" car etc. Indeed, maybe even not drawing the £20.99k as salary at all but taking it in dividends for the tax advantage.
When/if an extra salary is paid eventually, that could go to spouse or significant other although the former student would obviously benefit from this.
As I say, if a lowly pleb like me can think of this, I'm sure the powers that be have also taken it into account.

Cat2011 · 9 November 2011 at 1:07PM

If you don't know the in's and out's of the new system by now then you're probably too daft to go to uni anyway. There are plenty of sources of information.

I just wish they'd hurry up and decide if you can overpay. As a prospective student next year I want to start sorting out how to finance it.

2sides2everystory · 9 November 2011 at 1:32PM

Cat2011 wrote: »

If you don't know the in's and out's of the new system by now then you're probably too daft to go to uni anyway. There are plenty of sources of information.

I just wish they'd hurry up and decide if you can overpay. As a prospective student next year I want to start sorting out how to finance it.

You might be forgiven Cat2011 as you are starting out (although your declared debts and savings suggest that you might be more mature than average!), but doesn't your post on second reading kind of cause you to be contradicting yourself in your second paragraph?

Even you don't know all the in's and out's of the new system needed to make your personal plan and you are well into preparing or even finalising perhaps your UCAS applications by now.

And when you look at the vagaries of the interest rate in this climate, you are never going to be able to come up with a reliable forecast of what actually you will pay if you really do plan to overpay if it is permitted. And how long will the threshold be £21K, the rate 9% and the payback limit 30 years? Do you know those in's and out's Gunga Din ?

People who are questioning the scheme are not daft, they are concerned. They may have more concerns than you who now merely wants to find out definitely whether overpayment will be permitted.

To even be considering overpayment suggests that you have done some forecasts already about the interest rates and don't like them, and that you don't like a 9% additional higher rate tax. It implies you have the independent means to buy your way out of the "wage slave" set up that most students are being shoo-ed into signing as they only have one choice - sign or don't go. Yet with 4 credit cards on the go, unless you have stumbled on some secret special retro Balance Transfer deals of the type I was using 10 years ago to buy property at a true 0% (no fees) then surely you must be counting on either a very highly paid job between now and when you go to university or an inheritance of some kind? What is your rationale for overpaying out of interest?

Sincere best wishes for getting on to your preferred course next year and making it all work for you.

alexlyne · 9 November 2011 at 1:33PM

i'm with those who blame the prospective students for not getting off their bums and actually finding out this information. I haven't been a student for years yet I know more than they do - how is that possible, it doesn't even interest me that much. 'Wow' is all I can say. It's certainly a scandal all right!

If the news in question was 'students don't know how much their university will charge for their education as many want to change the amount they said they would charge', then that would be a valid argument in my opinion.

2sides2everystory · 9 November 2011 at 1:48PM

What do you think you know alex?

Do you think you know that save for the richest students for whom £50K is a mere bagatelle, that the scheme is a tax?

If yes, do you think you know how that tax might be changed if the UK economic outlook becomes dire?

Do you think the UK economic outlook will become dire?

Do you think you are a fatalist?

alexlyne · 9 November 2011 at 2:13PM

I think I know that I don't know everything - else that's what I would have written?
I'm vaguely aware that the majority of students can be safe in the knowledge that they'll never pay back all of the debt they accrue, so not much point planning to try to overpay it, or determine the financial implications between an 8k uni and a 9k one. And because of that, it does amount to a 30 year tax on those earning over 21K at a rate of 9%... blah blah it's all written down pretty much everywhere. And the system will fall down as universities get their 9k a year from the government and students will pay only a fraction of that back, so where does the shortfall come from - but that isn't a question that really applies to a would-be uni student deciding their career options.

anselld · 9 November 2011 at 2:52PM

It is not communication which is a National Scandal, it is the huge increase in fees and the level of debt students are expected to carry for a decent education.

They are not protesting for better communication; You don't need to have two brains to work out it is much more expensive in the new system to go to University. That is why they are protesting.

2sides2everystory · 9 November 2011 at 3:04PM

alexlyne wrote:

... And because of that, it does amount to a 30 year tax on those earning over 21K at a rate of 9%... blah blah it's all written down pretty much everywhere.

So alex, essentially you are content to just buy the sales pitch as it stands (or at least to recommend that our young people do so)? If they did so, should they be focussed on buying a certain university education or should they focus on a personal plan to deal with how the financial commitment might work? Or if you like - how much emphasis should they put on each?

Is it actually just a simple measure of one versus the other? I mean for every 10 hours they spend choosing the right course, should they spend one hour perhaps on tuning a cashflow forecast for their first 30 years after graduating? Or less perhaps, because it has already been worked out as "less to worry about than last year" and "you pay back just 9% of earnings over £21K" and "most people will never have to pay it all back before the 30 years are up ?

If like you, they are minded to buy into something like that as pitched, need they even look at the price of their chosen course be it £7,500pa for 3 years or £9,000 for 4 years? Need they be concerned about future increases in RPI?

Perhaps you would say no, those too are irrelevant because the fact still is that there's "less to worry about than last year" and "you pay back just 9% of earnings over £21K" and "most people will never have to pay it all back before the 30 years are up ?

OK then, so about the 9% and the £21K and the 30 years. How do we know those will survive as real limits that our young people can trust if there is no track record of such payments, no history, no pathfinding until someone starts paying and not until 2015 at the earliest?

How sure can we be that UK will not by then be facing austerity measures as bad if not worse than those affecting Greece today? Greece has frequently fired tear gas at its students this year. What might we fire at ours by 2015? 19% / £11K / 50 year paper perhaps so as not to hurt them too much?

MSE News: Confusion reigns as student fees fear takes hold

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