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Housing Benefit staff and New Deal staff
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Aitch7
Posts: 85 Forumite
Hello,
I wanted to start a thread that discusses people's experiences of benefit agency staff as my own experiences have taught me a lot. I have sent some of this information in a reply within this benefit section of the forum so a few paragraphs are the same - but this time I have included advice about what can be done to ensure a more positive relationship with benefit staff and hope that people will add their experiences and views to the list so that we all might have a resource to use.
I am about to set up as a freelance Life Coach/psychologist/trainer/mediator and have a wealth of training and expertise in non verbal behaviour and verbal communication skills and 15 years experience of dealing with the most difficult people in conflict situations.
Despite this experienc I have still found that Housing Benefit staff and New Deal staff, with the occassional exception, are bureaucratic bullies.
I have had dealings with them on and off for a number of years and the consistent catalogue of errors made on my claim leave little doubt that it is a coincidence or a rareity.
I have for example just engaged in yet another round of verbal dueling with Housing Benefit again regarding my change of circumstances and we would be here all day if I were to tell you what has happened - suffice to say that if my 76 year old mother had not forked out over £1000 for my rent whilst this mess is sorted out - I would be evicted by my present landlords who simply would not stand for rent problems and the studying I have recently completed and the career changes I am about to make would be severley compromised.
I have seldom come across aggression to the level that it exists among benefit staff. Their beliefs and values simply 'leak' out as their tone of voice and demeanor make clear and the actual language that they use is no better.
I have never experienced 'frustration' and even 'desperation' to the levels that I have during some periods of dealing with them and I had thought that these words were gone from both my experience and my vocabulary!
I want to be clear that these are consistent and repeated experiences of benefit agency staff not isolated incidents.
The main thing that has changed now is my attitude towards the benefit system and it's staff. Rather than engage in small battles with staff I feel that there is a much bigger one to be won which I outline below regarding the bullying being exposed and the public perception of claimants being changed.
After a period of being ill I am gradually getting back to work and am currently claiming housing benefit and even now, as on previous occassions am being what I can only term as 'bureaucratically bullied'.
I have to take a day off work each time they write to me in order to try to fulfill their criteria of relevant evidence for my changing circumstances and despite sending what any court would deem adequate evidence the letters continue to come back demanding further evidence.
I take consolation in the fact that in order to project the true disregard and hatred that they do and to treat people in such a manner staff merely reflect true pain from within themselves.
My experiences and my training have led me to several conclusions that I hope you might find useful:-
1 - It is possible to regard people who are angry/frustrated/difficult/emotional with true compassion and to realize that pain lies under all of these emotions - I know because I have done this with people I have mediated between who are all of these things and more. The fact that benefit agency staff are unable to deal with any of these emotions in benefit claimants and the fact that they have often evoked them in the first place reveals how unhappy they are themselves.
If YOU can maintain this belief then you will find your anger towards the staff subsides and that you are calmer and better able to deal with them even if they bait you as you will find your self in control and actually sorry for the person you are dealing with who is really the one who has lost control.
Benefit agency staff really do need to be helped via training to get out of the mind set they are in and I DO have genuine sympathy for them to a point.
However, bullying is inexcusable no matter how severe their stress and this problem needs to be addressed directly.
2 - When writing to any benefit agency number your points and state clearly what response you require to each one. Do the same with the points they make in their letters - address each one clearly in your reply.
Wherever possible send items recorded delivery. I have done this and still had them deny receiving letters but at least I had the proof.
3 - Use e-mails if they are available and use the request read receipt feature in your e-mail programme.
4 - If you go in person to ask any questions take a pen and paper and write down the replies. If possible get the staff member to agree that it is an accurate record and to date stamp it.
5 - One of the problems I have struggled with in the past is benefit staff's response that they are not responsible for the government's policies usually worded by saying something along the lines of "well I'm sorry Mr/Mrs/Ms X but I'm not responsible for Y" or "I am trying my best to help you Mr/Mrs/Ms X" - these phrases are often uttered with a tone that is completely incongruous with the words - i.e. you know they are detached from what they are saying and are sometimes even saying it in a way to provoke you.
The reason that most of us find this difficult and feel goaded is because we are frustrated - there is no one who is accountable and that is what we seek - accountability. Being told that the person in front of you is not accountable is a frustrating experience.
When this happens think again about how they are unhappy to be capable of treating someone like this and remain calm.
Ask if a manager can sit in on your appointment which may defuse the situation.
Ask if there is someone to whom you CAN address your concerns i.e. a manager, a complaints manager/system or even the government - ask for a name. This will give you someone who is at least more accountable and help you to deal with the immediate situation. It will also make the benefit agency staff member that you are dealing with less defensive as they will feel that you are not going to keep blaming them.
6 - Record your experiences in a log along with all relevant corresspondences and send it to the government minister who covers the benefits system. I firmly believe that if enough of us do this in a thorough and accurately recorded manner then something will have to change.
The benefit system is a true nightmare and the bullying that occurs remains hidden as the government distract the public with the notion of benefit fraudsters which instill the idea in most people that we are all trying to con the tax payers out of their money.
Nothing could be further from the truth in many cases and it is morally repugnant that this myth is perpetrated. It is time that this hidden bullying was exposed and the perceptions of benefit claimants was changed.
Please add your suggestions and comments and let's change things!
Aitch7
I wanted to start a thread that discusses people's experiences of benefit agency staff as my own experiences have taught me a lot. I have sent some of this information in a reply within this benefit section of the forum so a few paragraphs are the same - but this time I have included advice about what can be done to ensure a more positive relationship with benefit staff and hope that people will add their experiences and views to the list so that we all might have a resource to use.
I am about to set up as a freelance Life Coach/psychologist/trainer/mediator and have a wealth of training and expertise in non verbal behaviour and verbal communication skills and 15 years experience of dealing with the most difficult people in conflict situations.
Despite this experienc I have still found that Housing Benefit staff and New Deal staff, with the occassional exception, are bureaucratic bullies.
I have had dealings with them on and off for a number of years and the consistent catalogue of errors made on my claim leave little doubt that it is a coincidence or a rareity.
I have for example just engaged in yet another round of verbal dueling with Housing Benefit again regarding my change of circumstances and we would be here all day if I were to tell you what has happened - suffice to say that if my 76 year old mother had not forked out over £1000 for my rent whilst this mess is sorted out - I would be evicted by my present landlords who simply would not stand for rent problems and the studying I have recently completed and the career changes I am about to make would be severley compromised.
I have seldom come across aggression to the level that it exists among benefit staff. Their beliefs and values simply 'leak' out as their tone of voice and demeanor make clear and the actual language that they use is no better.
I have never experienced 'frustration' and even 'desperation' to the levels that I have during some periods of dealing with them and I had thought that these words were gone from both my experience and my vocabulary!
I want to be clear that these are consistent and repeated experiences of benefit agency staff not isolated incidents.
The main thing that has changed now is my attitude towards the benefit system and it's staff. Rather than engage in small battles with staff I feel that there is a much bigger one to be won which I outline below regarding the bullying being exposed and the public perception of claimants being changed.
After a period of being ill I am gradually getting back to work and am currently claiming housing benefit and even now, as on previous occassions am being what I can only term as 'bureaucratically bullied'.
I have to take a day off work each time they write to me in order to try to fulfill their criteria of relevant evidence for my changing circumstances and despite sending what any court would deem adequate evidence the letters continue to come back demanding further evidence.
I take consolation in the fact that in order to project the true disregard and hatred that they do and to treat people in such a manner staff merely reflect true pain from within themselves.
My experiences and my training have led me to several conclusions that I hope you might find useful:-
1 - It is possible to regard people who are angry/frustrated/difficult/emotional with true compassion and to realize that pain lies under all of these emotions - I know because I have done this with people I have mediated between who are all of these things and more. The fact that benefit agency staff are unable to deal with any of these emotions in benefit claimants and the fact that they have often evoked them in the first place reveals how unhappy they are themselves.
If YOU can maintain this belief then you will find your anger towards the staff subsides and that you are calmer and better able to deal with them even if they bait you as you will find your self in control and actually sorry for the person you are dealing with who is really the one who has lost control.
Benefit agency staff really do need to be helped via training to get out of the mind set they are in and I DO have genuine sympathy for them to a point.
However, bullying is inexcusable no matter how severe their stress and this problem needs to be addressed directly.
2 - When writing to any benefit agency number your points and state clearly what response you require to each one. Do the same with the points they make in their letters - address each one clearly in your reply.
Wherever possible send items recorded delivery. I have done this and still had them deny receiving letters but at least I had the proof.
3 - Use e-mails if they are available and use the request read receipt feature in your e-mail programme.
4 - If you go in person to ask any questions take a pen and paper and write down the replies. If possible get the staff member to agree that it is an accurate record and to date stamp it.
5 - One of the problems I have struggled with in the past is benefit staff's response that they are not responsible for the government's policies usually worded by saying something along the lines of "well I'm sorry Mr/Mrs/Ms X but I'm not responsible for Y" or "I am trying my best to help you Mr/Mrs/Ms X" - these phrases are often uttered with a tone that is completely incongruous with the words - i.e. you know they are detached from what they are saying and are sometimes even saying it in a way to provoke you.
The reason that most of us find this difficult and feel goaded is because we are frustrated - there is no one who is accountable and that is what we seek - accountability. Being told that the person in front of you is not accountable is a frustrating experience.
When this happens think again about how they are unhappy to be capable of treating someone like this and remain calm.
Ask if a manager can sit in on your appointment which may defuse the situation.
Ask if there is someone to whom you CAN address your concerns i.e. a manager, a complaints manager/system or even the government - ask for a name. This will give you someone who is at least more accountable and help you to deal with the immediate situation. It will also make the benefit agency staff member that you are dealing with less defensive as they will feel that you are not going to keep blaming them.
6 - Record your experiences in a log along with all relevant corresspondences and send it to the government minister who covers the benefits system. I firmly believe that if enough of us do this in a thorough and accurately recorded manner then something will have to change.
The benefit system is a true nightmare and the bullying that occurs remains hidden as the government distract the public with the notion of benefit fraudsters which instill the idea in most people that we are all trying to con the tax payers out of their money.
Nothing could be further from the truth in many cases and it is morally repugnant that this myth is perpetrated. It is time that this hidden bullying was exposed and the perceptions of benefit claimants was changed.
Please add your suggestions and comments and let's change things!
Aitch7
What goes around - comes around
give lots and you will always recieve lots
give lots and you will always recieve lots
0
Comments
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One of the problems I have struggled with in the past is benefit staff's response that they are not responsible for the government's policies usually worded by saying something along the lines of "well I'm sorry Mr/Mrs/Ms X but I'm not responsible for Y" or "I am trying my best to help you Mr/Mrs/Ms X" - these phrases are often uttered with a tone that is completely incongruous with the words - i.e. you know they are detached from what they are saying and are sometimes even saying it in a way to provoke you.
As an ex benefit/cuurent council tax worker, Iam used to getting it in the neck . What you need to remember is that we can only work through the rules that we are given , if the rules prevent us from doing something then we cant do it. There is nothing wrong with staff telling you whether what you want is against the rules or not.I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery but instead work as a specialist Council Tax paralegal assisting landlords and Council Tax payers with council tax disputes and valuation tribunals. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.0 -
Yes, CIS, when I worked in Planning I often found this. People want you to do things that are against the law and get shirty if you tell them you can't (because it is against the law).
I have actually said to Mrs X that if I 'bent; this law for her, as she was asking me to do, would she also want me to do it for the neighbour she was complaining about? The answer of course was no.
A colleague had death threats from one lady because he wouldn't (couldn't) alter the conditions on a Planning Permission that had been granted years before (not by him).
I also used to refer people to John Prescott's Office (in charge of Planning at the time) if they disagreed with the law.
Maybe the OP would think I was being 'bullying', but I was always pleasnt and polite, and only resorted to these measures after my explanations fell on deaf ears.
We as public service employees shouldn't have to put up with !!!!!! either.(AKA HRH_MUngo)
Member #10 of £2 savers club
Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology: Terry Eagleton0 -
CIS wrote:As an ex benefit/cuurent council tax worker, Iam used to getting it in the neck . What you need to remember is that we can only work through the rules that we are given , if the rules prevent us from doing something then we cant do it. There is nothing wrong with staff telling you whether what you want is against the rules or not.
What a great example of the 'just doing your job' absolving of any responsibility - thank you for the demonstration.
Furthermore you fail to address what I was really addressing which was the incongruence between what is said and HOW it is said - perhaps you could re-read my post?
I also give suggestions for how to get around this as I do appreciate that the staff cannot do anything about the rules however they could speak in a manner that it congruent with the words - failing to do this is deliberate goading of clients and I think that many people will appreciate what I mean.
Also - perhaps you might want to think about how the system is set up instead of just defending it?
Furthermore - at no time did I suggest asking staff to break the law nor was I referring to examples where client's may ask them to - I therefore object very strongly to this being raised as it it pertains to my e-mail which it does not.What goes around - comes around
give lots and you will always recieve lots0 -
Aitch 7,
It is incorrect to tar all benefit staff with the same brush when you as one person will have only encountered a tiny percentage of staff. Most staff will react in a decent way if they are treated decently so to say that they try to provoke and bully is wrong. Maybe there is something lacking in your attitude towards them if you keep having problems. Considering your paranoid attitude I am not sure you have made the correct career choice.0 -
Some good advice there Aitch7, it's just a shame that you felt the need to offer it with such a negative pitch. Whether you like it or not, there are laws that govern how civil servants work, and how else can they relay that fact to the client unless by speaking the words "I can't do that". You say that your problem is with 'the way they say it,' but to be fair, given it's an answer you wouldn't want to hear, most people would react angrily/disappointedly to it. Saying it with a smile wouldn't help, it might even antagonise.
By the way, staff are not allowed to 'think about how the system is set up instead of just defending it' because by offering a personal opinion they could prejudice any appeal against either their employer (and hence disciplinary action and possible loss of employment) or the client (which would defeat your point).Quidco savings: £499.49 tracked, £494.35 paid.0 -
I have to agree with this and would be interested to know how many benefit staff the op has had contact with.healy wrote:Aitch 7,
It is incorrect to tar all benefit staff with the same brush when you as one person will have only encountered a tiny percentage of staff. Most staff will react in a decent way if they are treated decently so to say that they try to provoke and bully is wrong. Maybe there is something lacking in your attitude towards them if you keep having problems. Considering your paranoid attitude I am not sure you have made the correct career choice.
There are two sides to every story.
I am not a SAINT just a saints supporter(saints RLFC)Grand final winners 2006.World club champions 2007.0 -
I started off under the naive assumption that most benefit staff at York had good intentions. Three years later, I am not so sure. I could write a novel, but I'll keep to the basic points:
(1) Mass confusion due to them not understanding disabled students can claim housing benefits. Took a year to sort out. Back then, I didn't know I had rights to complain.
(2) They then decided I had been overpaid by £2000. The letter admitted it was their error, but I was liable for overpayments.
(3) I went to the local paper, student newspaper, the MP, enlisted the support of a welfare adviser and mysteriously the council then send me a letter of apology stating I had 'not received the normal level of service.' I bet if I hadn't taken these measures they would still be demanding £2000, and I bet some people just believe whatever the council tells them and do nothing.
(4) Staff have 'lost' evidence on more than one occasion, usually because they forget to photocopy something. One time, they didn't photocopy a bank statement I supplied leading to a few months delay. When I complained I was dismissively told 'people make mistakes', yes they do, but these kinds of mistakes can make the difference between some people having a place to sleep at night.
(5) I informed them I was going to be absent under the 13 week rule. I was assured several times this was fine. I then received a letter stating that as I had not complied with the verification visit, benefits were going to be suspended. The verification visit mysteriously took place AFTER I informed them of my absence, and they said a card had been posted through my letterbox, nothing received here. I think it's a lie.
It goes on ... now, I have gotten a decent level of service, but this is only after I have taken rather drastic measures. Will most people think of going to their MP? I doubt it. It disappoints me I had to do this just to get a response.'We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. '
-- T. S. Eliot0 -
My colleague had death threats from one lady because he wouldn't (couldn't) alter the conditions on a Planning Permission that had been granted years before (not by him).
Aitch, was my colleague supposed to respond to this with a smile and wave? (Actually, he was very laid-back about it - some people would have reported her to the police).(AKA HRH_MUngo)
Member #10 of £2 savers club
Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology: Terry Eagleton0 -
Aitch7 wrote:What a great example of the 'just doing your job' absolving of any responsibility - thank you for the demonstration.
Furthermore you fail to address what I was really addressing which was the incongruence between what is said and HOW it is said - perhaps you could re-read my post?
.
I think this response of yours displays how you must deal with people in public service. perhaps your experience is limited by the approach you take?
I must remember next time I get into any sort of discussion with a shop/supplier/call centre/website etc etc to expect the person at the other end of the discussion to take full responsibility for their employers polices, profits and funding. I'll take notes and expect them to sign it, I'll send everything by recorded delivery and use email as much as possible.
and as we all do this, we'll watch out whole nation grind to a halt as we treat each other like dirt and people just turn against each other.
Your "solution" is just a covert form of agression. You comments contain so many prejudiced opinions and biased comments that it can't be seen as even handed "advice", in fact most of it won't help so many people who are having difficulties with the various benefit systems.
what might help is to point people towards independant bodies who can give un-biased advice, which might even sometimes be along the same lines as that given by the oifficial body (but they're all in it together anyway).
ps. I'm a very civil servant and resent your comments. They are offensive toward me and so many of my colleagues who work hard and try to provide a good service to people who are willing to receive it.0 -
Excellent post Real, I kept mine short but yours really exposes the passive aggression suggested by our "life coach etc".0
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