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Work or be homeless!
Comments
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95% of the money spent in this country (or any other) is not spent on land.
OK I'll explain it to you using little words so as not to confuse you.
Simplified:
The government collects £100 in tax.
The government pays that £100 to a nurse for her services
The nurse pays £50 to her landlord and £50 to the butcher
The butcher pays £25 to his landlord and £25 to the farmer
The farmer pays £12.50 to his landlord and £12.50 his baker
The baker pays £6.75 to his landlord and £6.75 to the miller
The miller pays £3.37 to his landlord and £3.38 to the grain farmer.
So in the simplified example, we can already see that £96.62 has gone to landowners. But what have the landowners PROVIDED in this situation? Did they create the land, or was it there before they got there? If the people above had refused to pay their rent, would the land they live/work on vapourise, or would it still exist??
Yes I know people don't pay 50% of their wages as rent, but the methodology is valid. Everyone pays either rent or mortgage. The cost of that rent/mortgage is passed onto others in the cost of goods and services.
That INCLUDES goods/services funded through taxation.
Those costs spread out accross society consuming all available monies.
It goes down to the basest level... a man in south america digs iron ore out of the ground and sells it... a portion of the money he receives he will then use to pay his rent. When you buy a car, the cost of the rent that he had to pay is included in the cost of the car. If he DIDN'T have to pay rent, he could work for less money without lowering his standard of living, and the cost of your car would go down.
Now imagine if NO-ONE had to pay rent/mortgage. How cheap would things become? What would happen to your standard of living?If that was true the trading advantage that a country like Australia or Brazil would have that had land that is massively cheaper than our own would destroy the UK economy very quickly and UK land would be very cheap.
The land is not as valuable because it is less productive... that is, most of it is arrid desert or boggy swamp. Some of it is good though and as a result austrailia has "damaged" the UK economy... for a long term grain produced in Austrailia flooded the markets and pushed down prices, putting british farmers out of business. Austrailia have had a very bad year though... drought then floods have hurt their farming industy badly.It's rubbish, a complete non-argument unless you can find any evidence whatsoever to back it up. Which of course you can't because it's nonsense.
If you use your brain for 5 minutes rather than just hurling random insults you'de see how obvious it was.Bankruptcy isn't the worst that can happen to you. The worst that can happen is your forced to live the rest of your life in abject poverty trying to repay the debts.0 -
OK I'll explain it to you using little words so as not to confuse you.Simplified:
The government collects £100 in tax.
The government pays that £100 to a nurse for her services
The nurse pays £50 to her landlord and £50 to the butcher
The butcher pays £25 to his landlord and £25 to the farmer
The farmer pays £12.50 to his landlord and £12.50 his baker
The baker pays £6.75 to his landlord and £6.75 to the miller
The miller pays £3.37 to his landlord and £3.38 to the grain farmer.
So in the simplified example, we can already see that £96.62 has gone to landowners. But what have the landowners PROVIDED in this situation? Did they create the land, or was it there before they got there? If the people above had refused to pay their rent, would the land they live/work on vapourise, or would it still exist??
Yes I know people don't pay 50% of their wages as rent, but the methodology is valid. Everyone pays either rent or mortgage. The cost of that rent/mortgage is passed onto others in the cost of goods and services.
You're trying to prove your point using fictitious figures! That's not a proof. It's imaginative I grant you but certainly not proof!
I stand by what I said,a non-argument which you have no evidence whatsoever to back it up. And that's not an random insult, it's a carefully thought out insult.0 -
It really seems a pointless argument SquatNow. People will always have to pay rent/mortgage whilst there are property rights in the western world, which are extremely important to the very fabric of our society. Your efforts are not going to change peoples opinions and that will never change. Whilst i don't care whether you squat or not, you aren't going to convince people to follow your way of life, it just isn't logistically possible.
Also saying how cheap things would be if we didn't pay rent is meaningless. If everyone stopped paying rent and wages stayed the same, we would probably see zimbabwesque inflation whilst the retail cost of everything else escalated to meet demand.
I wish i could my point across better, but i'm crap at writing.0 -
What if:
The government collects £100 in tax.
The government pays that £100 to a nurse for her services
The nurse pays £50 to her drug dealer and £50 to the butcher
The butcher pays £25 to his drug dealer and £25 to the farmer
The farmer pays £12.50 to his drug dealer and £12.50 his baker
The baker pays £6.75 to his drug dealer and £6.75 to the miller
The miller pays £3.37 to his drug dealer and £3.38 to the grain farmer.
So, 95% of all the money goes to drug dealers.
Squat Now, you really are a muppet.
GGThere are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those that don't.0 -
Gorgeous_George wrote: »What if:
The government collects £100 in tax.
The government pays that £100 to a nurse for her services
The nurse pays £50 to her drug dealer and £50 to the butcher
The butcher pays £25 to his drug dealer and £25 to the farmer
The farmer pays £12.50 to his drug dealer and £12.50 his baker
The baker pays £6.75 to his drug dealer and £6.75 to the miller
The miller pays £3.37 to his drug dealer and £3.38 to the grain farmer.
So, 95% of all the money goes to drug dealers.
You arn't legally obliged to pay money to drug dealers in exchange for the right to live. If you don't pay your rent/mortgage you will be thrown out into the street where you will freeze to death.
Also, being homeless is illegal... vagrancy. Failure to pay mortgage/rent is a criminal offence.Gorgeous_George wrote: »Squat Now, you really are a muppet.
Your example shows it is you, not I, that is a muppet.It really seems a pointless argument SquatNow. People will always have to pay rent/mortgage whilst there are property rights in the western world, which are extremely important to the very fabric of our society. Your efforts are not going to change peoples opinions and that will never change. Whilst i don't care whether you squat or not, you aren't going to convince people to follow your way of life, it just isn't logistically possible.
I'm not arguing that people should refuse to pay rent, or at least, not yet. What I'm saying is this: Where the F*** is all the money GOING. 95% of all money is going to people as a reward for doing nothing more than buying land.Also saying how cheap things would be if we didn't pay rent is meaningless. If everyone stopped paying rent and wages stayed the same, we would probably see zimbabwesque inflation whilst the retail cost of everything else escalated to meet demand.
Do you have ANY concept of economics? Zimbabwe has high inflation because the government collects little or no tax and instead print new currency to pay state workers. It is NOTHING to do with rent.
Not paying rent wouldn't increase the amount of money in existence, it would just stop it all flowing into one huge pile under a landlords bed.I wish i could my point across better, but i'm crap at writing.
You're crap at economics too if it makes you feel any better.Bankruptcy isn't the worst that can happen to you. The worst that can happen is your forced to live the rest of your life in abject poverty trying to repay the debts.0 -
so if no one paid any mortgage or rent - where would we all find these "free" houses to live in - and even if they were "free" where would the funds come from to maintain them ?
""If you don't pay your rent/mortgage you will be thrown out into the street where you will freeze to death."" - you do like to play the drama queen Squatnow - no one freezes to death in this country anymore - there are charitable hostels to help folks in such dire need
"Failure to pay mortgage/rent is a criminal offence" - no its not - its a civil matter - repo cases and heard in the local county court - not the magistrates courts.0 -
You can replace drug dealer with any other commodity supplier.
It's like driving from Plymouth to Edinburgh. You drive half way and still have half way to go. For the second half of the journey, you drive half way and have half way to go. You repeat this forever and always have half way to go.
The point is that your argument is mathematically flawed. Some people spend less than 1% of their income on property, others may spend 90%. I choose to spend a sixth of my take-home pay on holidays but that doesn't mean that 95% of all money is spent on holidays.
If I'm a muppet, I'd like to be Gonzo.
GGThere are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those that don't.0 -
so if no one paid any mortgage or rent - where would we all find these "free" houses to live in - and even if they were "free" where would the funds come from to maintain them ?
You could PAY someone to BUILD you a house. You could do it now. The problem is you need to BUY some LAND from someone else first. This isn't about bricks and mortar... it's about land.""If you don't pay your rent/mortgage you will be thrown out into the street where you will freeze to death."" - you do like to play the drama queen Squatnow - no one freezes to death in this country anymore - there are charitable hostels to help folks in such dire need
In those cases, while you are not paying rent/mortgage, someone else is doing it for you... the taxpayer. Just because you arn't paying it doesn't mean it isn't being paid."Failure to pay mortgage/rent is a criminal offence" - no its not - its a civil matter - repo cases and heard in the local county court - not the magistrates courts.
Failure to pay isn't in itself an offense, but if you don't pay you become homeless, which is an offense.Bankruptcy isn't the worst that can happen to you. The worst that can happen is your forced to live the rest of your life in abject poverty trying to repay the debts.0 -
Gorgeous_George wrote: »You can replace drug dealer with any other commodity supplier.
You fail to see the point here... landlords/land speculators don't supply a comodity... the land was always there. All they are doing is demanding money for someone to use something they didn't create.
The difference is that drugs are NOT a finite resource. Land IS. you CANNOT create some more land.Gorgeous_George wrote: »The point is that your argument is mathematically flawed. Some people spend less than 1% of their income on property, others may spend 90%.
Even if you own your own home, you are still paying for land. Everything you buy costs what it does because the person who made it has rent to pay. So once you've paid off your mortgage, the extra money you have left allows you to buy nice things. Making those nice things allows other people to pay their rent.Gorgeous_George wrote: »I choose to spend a sixth of my take-home pay on holidays but that doesn't mean that 95% of all money is spent on holidays.
Alsmot all of that 1/6th will go towards land. The waiters have rent to pay, the hotel has rent to pay.
I'de rather be a fraggle.Gorgeous_George wrote: »If I'm a muppet, I'd like to be Gonzo.You're trying to prove your point using fictitious figures! That's not a proof. It's imaginative I grant you but certainly not proof!
I stand by what I said,a non-argument which you have no evidence whatsoever to back it up. And that's not an random insult, it's a carefully thought out insult.
I don't have to provide "evidence" as it is so blindingly obvious that it is almost breathtaking that you are too brainwashed to understand the concept.
You have been convinced that you purpose in life should be to buy/rent a house, but you never stop to ask where all the money goes and WHY.
If you had an open mind and stopped to think for a moment it is easy to see that costs incured by one person are passed onto those that employ them through increased wage demands.
If everyone incurs a similar cost, those costs soon rack up and become a drain on the system.
If a law was passed requiring everyone to give £1000 a year to the Queen, then wages would all rise by FAR FAR more than £1000, because the cost of those rises would be passed on in increased prices of goods and services, as the companies would need to charge more to recover the extra wages.
Because the man who washes you car has to pay £1000, he has to charge you more. So you need to ask your boss for a rise big enough to cover you £1000 plus the extra money your car washer is charging.
How can you not understand this blindingly simply concept... I mean it's the very basis of how our economy works!Bankruptcy isn't the worst that can happen to you. The worst that can happen is your forced to live the rest of your life in abject poverty trying to repay the debts.0 -
""
Quote:
Originally Posted by clutton
so if no one paid any mortgage or rent - where would we all find these "free" houses to live in - and even if they were "free" where would the funds come from to maintain them ?
You could PAY someone to BUILD you a house. You could do it now. The problem is you need to BUY some LAND from someone else first. This isn't about bricks and mortar... it's about land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clutton
""If you don't pay your rent/mortgage you will be thrown out into the street where you will freeze to death."" - you do like to play the drama queen Squatnow - no one freezes to death in this country anymore - there are charitable hostels to help folks in such dire need
In those cases, while you are not paying rent/mortgage, someone else is doing it for you... the taxpayer. Just because you arn't paying it doesn't mean it isn't being paid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clutton
"Failure to pay mortgage/rent is a criminal offence" - no its not - its a civil matter - repo cases and heard in the local county court - not the magistrates courts.
Failure to pay isn't in itself an offense, but if you don't pay you become homeless, which is an offense.
"""
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous George
You can replace drug dealer with any other commodity supplier.
You fail to see the point here... landlords/land speculators don't supply a comodity... the land was always there. All they are doing is demanding money for someone to use something they didn't create.
The difference is that drugs are NOT a finite resource. Land IS. you CANNOT create some more land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous George
The point is that your argument is mathematically flawed. Some people spend less than 1% of their income on property, others may spend 90%.
Even if you own your own home, you are still paying for land. Everything you buy costs what it does because the person who made it has rent to pay. So once you've paid off your mortgage, the extra money you have left allows you to buy nice things. Making those nice things allows other people to pay their rent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous George
I choose to spend a sixth of my take-home pay on holidays but that doesn't mean that 95% of all money is spent on holidays.
Alsmot all of that 1/6th will go towards land. The waiters have rent to pay, the hotel has rent to pay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous George
If I'm a muppet, I'd like to be Gonzo.
I'de rather be a fraggle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Generali
You're trying to prove your point using fictitious figures! That's not a proof. It's imaginative I grant you but certainly not proof!
I stand by what I said,a non-argument which you have no evidence whatsoever to back it up. And that's not an random insult, it's a carefully thought out insult.
I don't have to provide "evidence" as it is so blindingly obvious that it is almost breathtaking that you are too brainwashed to understand the concept.
You have been convinced that you purpose in life should be to buy/rent a house, but you never stop to ask where all the money goes and WHY.
If you had an open mind and stopped to think for a moment it is easy to see that costs incured by one person are passed onto those that employ them through increased wage demands.
If everyone incurs a similar cost, those costs soon rack up and become a drain on the system.
If a law was passed requiring everyone to give £1000 a year to the Queen, then wages would all rise by FAR FAR more than £1000, because the cost of those rises would be passed on in increased prices of goods and services, as the companies would need to charge more to recover the extra wages.
Because the man who washes you car has to pay £1000, he has to charge you more. So you need to ask your boss for a rise big enough to cover you £1000 plus the extra money your car washer is charging.
How can you not understand this blindingly simply concept... I mean it's the very basis of how our economy works!""
===================================================
does ANYONE have ANY idea what Squatnow means - or is it just that i have had a long day ????
i mean how will ordinary folk get the money to build a house for goodess sakes ?
seriously, he clearly has such passionate views, that i would really be interested if there is ANYone else who could try to explain what he getting at - i just dont get it - i really don't.0
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