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Serving S21,Tenancy Deposit rules and Sword of Damocles
Comments
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you just can't win on this forum
""i give my new tenants the AST including the Section 21 to read 2-3 days ahead of them signing it""
so that they have time to read it ahead of time so that they know what they are going to sign and can ask me questions when we do sign it
Really, I'm not getting at you, I'm having a pointless debate with you (& others) about how I think it could be interpreted. Please don't get annoyed, if I am annoying you just stick me on ignore for the rest of today.
My argument is that by handing over a piece of paper with the s21 details on it, that is effectively serving an s21, regardless of what happens next. Unless you only sign & date it after the tenant has signed & dated the tenancy agreement.
On a separate note I though that if the s21 was included in the tenancy agreement it was invalid & had to be served separately."Mrs. Pench, you've won the car contest, would you like a triumph spitfire or 3000 in cash?" He smiled.
Mrs. Pench took the money. "What will you do with it all? Not that it's any of my business," he giggled.
"I think I'll become an alcoholic," said Betty.0 -
sorry ! the way i see it is - if a section 21 is not signed by me, its not a legal document is it ? its just a piece of paper with information on it. Just like an unsigned AST given ahead of time for tenants to read is not a legal document untill it is signed.
""Unless you only sign & date it after the tenant has signed & dated the tenancy agreement"
thats exactly what i do Bob, - the AST gets signed by both parties on all pages, then the Section 21 gets signed by both parties, so, technically the S21 has been served after the agreement, providing the agreement starts on the date of signature - thats my view !!
i think this is a very large debate which will run and run and run about a matter which only a judge in court could decide - if someone can find a legal precedent then we could all go and have a nice cup of soothing camomile tea !0 -
Er, this week I will be Guy_Montag, silvercar and not Mr Broderick.....everyone happy with that?.....thats exactly what i do Bob,.....A house isn't a home without a cat.
Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.
I have writer's block - I can't begin to tell you about it.
You told me again you preferred handsome men but for me you would make an exception.
It's a recession when your neighbour loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.0 -
quote,clutton; "you just can't win on this forum"
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:0 -
i think i'll be led zepelin this week !!!0
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Franklee says ""The point being that it allows the landlord to start possession proceedings anytime later on without having to wait the two months notice period.""
Within the fixed term this is simply incorrect Franklee.
I was talking about after expiry of the notice, i.e. the landlord can start possession proceedings after the expiry of the S21 notice. I thought it was already clear the S21 notice can't expire before the end of the fixed term
If i have a tenant who i really want out, why should i have to wait a further 2 months from the end of the fixed term, when he could just walk out if he wanted to. ?
For a six month fixed term, the landlord can serve the S21 at the start of month four and start possession proceedings at the end of month six. An S21 served on day one of the tenancy cannot expire any earlier so the landlord doing that isn't any better off in that the earliest he can start possession proceedings is the same! From that point of view the SoD S21 doesn't gain the landlord any time.
An example where the SoD does save the landlord time is where he decides he wants the tenant to leave two WEEKS before the end of the fixed term. Like this:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=6454785#post6454785
As you say a Section 21 does not need the landlord to give a reason why he wants his house back, he may want the house back for his own use or he may want to sell. So with the SoD the tenant, even though they haven't done anything wrong, may face having to move with little or no notice. He as to move out in a hurry or face possession proceedings, having to pay the landlord's court fee and worst of all a big black mark on his reference.Your experiences with a previous landlord have clearly made you very bitter, and you now choose to judge all other landlords by the same yardstick.
Not at all. I simply want a guaranteed two months notice as I need pretty much all that time to arrange moving. That is, find a new property, arrange time off work, cancel any plans, pack up the house and move. A student renting unfurnished may be able to move in two weeks, but a family renting furnished needs the two months!
I have no problem with the S21 when it is used fairly, that is to give the tenant a fair two months notice that the landlord wants the tenant to leave. I am more than happy to comply with that.
The problem comes when the landlord serves the S21, then hints the tenant can ignore it, leaving the tenant without effective notice as they do not use the time to pack up.It is sad that you seem to have become absolutely obsessional about this Section 21 business - its the law, and some landlords choose different times to use it - you cannot change this by your one man campaign on this website.
It is an abuse of the law as a S21 notice by law should be unequivocal and without reservation. Once the landlord says he may renew the tenancy, or that the tenant can stay should things go well etc. then the S21 notice is technically invalid. The problem is the tenant can't easily prove what was said when the landlord denies it later as he must if he wants the S21 to work.
Once the tenant realises what's happening he CAN guard against the SoD. The tenant can ask the landlord to put any reassurances that he "may renew" or that the tenant can stay in writing thus collecting proof that the S21 is now invalid.
The tenant can also ask in advance if a S21 SoD is to be used and walk away before it's too late.I issue Section 21s on day one because you never know how a tenancy is going to turn out, people can appear nice initially, but, can turn into something quite different. i have never taken any of my tenants to court, so have never had to use the Section 21. i always explain to my tenants that it is a notice to quit. I also explain that we may renew the tenancy. Not all landlords issue Section 21s under duplicitous circumstances.
That is duplicitous as the S21 is technically invalid as soon as you say you may renew but the tenant will not be able to prove what you said! To be valid an S21 must be unequivocal and without reservation.
The tenant not knowing if the S21 is meant or not does not know if he should arrange to move or not, so the notice period is as useful as a chocolate teapot and the tenant is left open to having to move in a hurry.0 -
If however the tenant is smart and does notice the s.21 he is usually told by the LL that it's " just routine" or "don't worry, I want you to stay for 12, 18 or 24 months" which is falsely reassuring the tenant, then there is a case (in law) for the tenant to claim that the landlord has "estoppled" himself by making such statements, in particular the latter statement.
Yes there is. But the problem is how does the tenant prove what was said? If the landlord wants the S21 to work he will have to deny what he said. If the tenant can collect some of that evidence in writing then he could prove the S21 invalid.
The tenant could ask the landlord for reassurances, and for confirmation in writing. If the landlord won't put it in writing the tenant could write to the landlord expressing concern that he has just been served notice and confirm what was said, documenting that he was offered a long term let and any reassurances the landlord gave.
Ultimately dealing with someone who won't confirm their promises in writing is a bad idea and shows there is something dodgy going on.Guy_Montag wrote: »Finally according Franklee if you stay beyond the end of the tenancy the landlord can let you live happily for months if not years, but then apply for immediate possession using the S21 even though it was served months ago & dated to end at the end of the tenancy (is that right Franklee?)
Yes. BobProperty is right in his answer to this.What is wrong is the all to common practice of LL's or LA's issuing one with the tenancy agreement, at the start of the tenancy.
Right. The S21 is fine so long as the landlord actually wants the tenant to leave when the notice expires. The problem comes when the landlord gives the tenant reassurances he can stay on AND yet still expects to be able to enforce the S21! When is the tenant supposed to start packing? The tenant has been denied notice to do this. Technically the reassurances have made the S21 invalid but the tenant will have a hell of a job proving that as the landlord can deny there were any reassurances.Guy_Montag wrote: »Could continued receipt of rent not be considered willingness to let you stay. Perhaps not a month or two, but after three months if no approach had been made to the tenant I would claim that we had entered into a de facto periodic tenancy.
Again I agree with BobProperty's answer. Acceptance of rent makes no difference. There are no time limits by which the landlord has to start possession proceedings, so he can do that months or years after the S21 expired.Guy_Montag wrote: »I am actually suggesting that it doesn't become periodic, but instead becomes an new AST. Since the old one is dissolved by the S21 & you don't need a contract for an AST to be in effect (I believe circumstances that appear to be a tenancy will be viewed by the courts as a tenancy whether or not there is any paperwork), then I would claim that I am living under a new AST from the time that the last one expired.
The S21 does not dissolve the tenancy. If the tenant doesn't leave the tenancy ends by court order. Without that it's still the same tenancy, although now periodic, and the S21 is still valid. Think about it like this, even in the case where it isn't a SoD so the landlord wants possession it takes time for a possession hearing to be arranged, the S21 remains valid during that time. It would not make sense if a tenant refusing to leave invalidated the S21 by creating a new tenancy, landlords would be stuck with tenants forever.They are probably "blissfully unaware" that they signed one and have therefore never mentioned it to you
Exactly, there's an example of that here:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.html?p=5815317&postcount=4But, on the rare occasion when you do need to get a "tenant-gone-bad" out - it does make it easier to have served a Section 21. One of my landlord's tenants, who started to act very unsociably, soon stopped when i explained the full implications of the Section 21 - she did not realise how quickly i could have had her out had i chosen to do so.i give my new tenants the AST including the Section 21 to read 2-3 days ahead of them signing it. If they have not read it that's not my fault. And when we do sign it - i go thru it with them section by section - so no, coal, they are not blissfully unaware.
In which case how do you let it be known that you do not want them to move out on S21 expiry without invalidating the S21? Only I wouldn't even bother unpacking if I thought I'd have to move again in just six months which is what the S21 tells me. If the tenant asks if they will have to leave in six months and you give them any reassurances about staying technically you invalidate the S21. Would you deny the reassurances later on? Would you put the reassurances in writing if asked nicely?0
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