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Advice please re getting money back from LA
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smeef
Posts: 45 Forumite
Just wondered if anyone could give me some advice about whether our ex-LA can do what they are doing.
We signed a 6 month AST and section 21 (if only I knew about the Sword of Damocles then) back in February. Roughly 2 months before the end of the AST LA asked if we wanted to renew we agreed and they said they'd draw up a new contract and send it out nearer the time.
August 6th, about 2 weeks before the end of AST, LA rings and checks we want to renew, we agree to renew and to an increase in rent. The very next day LA rings back and says LL has changed their mind, wants to sell and we have to be out by the end of the AST.
We started looking for properties but asked the LA to negotiate a more realistic amount of time for us to move out. LL changed their minds and said we had to be out by Sept 14th, then changed their minds again and said we had until we found somewhere new or the house was sold. Asked about a contract for this an about paying rent until said unfixed time and they said just leave the standing order in place.
Within a week of them dropping this on us we found a new property and fixed a moving date for Sept 1st, which we told the LA. We moved out on Sept 1st, attended the inventory chweck on Sept 6th, and asked for our overpaid rent back. I was told by the LA in person this would be sorted.
Following some wrangling over the deposit (which is now sorted), LA is now saying we can't have our overpaid rent back (over £300) because we didn't give them a month's notice.
Personally I think that's unreasonable as we were asked to move out as quickly as possible so didn't think they'd then want a month's notice. Can they legally keep our money, or is it reasonable to say to them if you don't give it back we'll be taking it to the small claims court?
Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks.
We signed a 6 month AST and section 21 (if only I knew about the Sword of Damocles then) back in February. Roughly 2 months before the end of the AST LA asked if we wanted to renew we agreed and they said they'd draw up a new contract and send it out nearer the time.
August 6th, about 2 weeks before the end of AST, LA rings and checks we want to renew, we agree to renew and to an increase in rent. The very next day LA rings back and says LL has changed their mind, wants to sell and we have to be out by the end of the AST.
We started looking for properties but asked the LA to negotiate a more realistic amount of time for us to move out. LL changed their minds and said we had to be out by Sept 14th, then changed their minds again and said we had until we found somewhere new or the house was sold. Asked about a contract for this an about paying rent until said unfixed time and they said just leave the standing order in place.
Within a week of them dropping this on us we found a new property and fixed a moving date for Sept 1st, which we told the LA. We moved out on Sept 1st, attended the inventory chweck on Sept 6th, and asked for our overpaid rent back. I was told by the LA in person this would be sorted.
Following some wrangling over the deposit (which is now sorted), LA is now saying we can't have our overpaid rent back (over £300) because we didn't give them a month's notice.
Personally I think that's unreasonable as we were asked to move out as quickly as possible so didn't think they'd then want a month's notice. Can they legally keep our money, or is it reasonable to say to them if you don't give it back we'll be taking it to the small claims court?
Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks.
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Comments
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When the original AST ended the contract became periodic. This means that you are required to give one months notice and the landlord 2 months, both to end on a rent day.
Difficult to argue about the landlord changing his mind constantly with nothing in writing. The only evidence on paper will be that you paid the next months rent, implying you accepted the contract had become periodic and you stayed in the property.
It may be worth you sending a "letter before action", requiring the repayment within 7 days; I doubt its worth actually going to court.I'm a Forum Ambassador on the housing, mortgages & student money saving boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Forum Ambassadors are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.0 -
I would agree about the periodic tenancy, but as they told us to be out as quickly as possible surely they've surrendered the need for a month's notice?0
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It's landlords like this that make me wanna punch somebody (preferably the landlord in question.
I had a similar thing happen to me, only I said I wanted to quit at the end of the AST and (I'm not quite sure how he managed it, Iwas young and it was my first time renting) he got me to sign a new lease and screwed another months rent out of me. After threatening to sully my "good" name to my boss. Although to be fair in one of my letters to him I used a quote as a footnote:
"show me a capitalist and I'll show you a bloodsucker"
...........I know............."A goldfish left Lincoln logs in me sock drawer!"
"That's the story of JESUS."0 -
To be sure of the situation you need to provide more information.
You signed a 6 month AST in February, what date in February was that?
You were served a S21 at the start of the tenancy, what is the expiry date for the S21? Typically with the Sword of Damocles the expiry date is the end of the fixed term.
If you have stayed past the end of the fixed term and the S21 expiry date the S21 remains valid. You do NOT need to serve a months notice to leave as the S21 has not been withdrawn. You owe rent for each of the days you were in occupation after the end of the fixed term.
Simply put the landlord has asked you to leave by serving the S21 notice and you have left. If you had not left the landlord, with an expired S21, could go to court at any time for possession. Likewise you can leave at any time. The S21 is asking you to go. You went. That's how it works.
No counter notice from you is needed as the S21 is valid indefinitely unless withdrawn either by agreement between the landlord and the tenant or by the landlord making a mistake that the tenant then uses to challenge the validity of the notice. Neither of these has happened in your case. (I would say the landlord chopping and changing their mind did invalidate the notice but you are not challenging that. If you had wanted to then you would ideally need the negotiations in writing to prove what happened but that would also prove the agreement that you had till you found somewhere else. In future always get these things in writing.)
The Sword of Damocles is a vile way of doing business designed to deprive the tenant of their two months notice. Do not let them then turn round and charge you for rent you do not owe after they have mucked you about!0 -
Franklee, are you saying the Sword of Damocles has acted in the tenants favour? IS that a first?
Does the landlord accepting the rent after the end of the original term show that he accepts the tenancy has gone periodic?I'm a Forum Ambassador on the housing, mortgages & student money saving boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Forum Ambassadors are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.0 -
I'm not sure how much of this is down to the landlord and how much is the letting agent. The LA keeps failing to phone us back and we have no contact with the LL so we don't know who is saying we can't have the money back.
We continually asked for a new contract or something in writing to make us staying in the house after the end of the AST legal. On the last day of the AST, we received an e-mail saying we could stay "until either we find another property or the house is sold".
Does this invalidate the S21? Or was the S21 invalidated when they said they would draw up a contract for a new tenancy and we agreed to a rent rise? And if so, does that then imply we needed to give a month's notice, eventhough we were told to move out as quickly as possible?
It all feels so messy, and I don't know where we stand. I just know we can't afford to give them over £300 as a penalty for doing as they asked.0 -
I'm not sure how much of this is down to the landlord and how much is the letting agent. The LA keeps failing to phone us back and we have no contact with the LL so we don't know who is saying we can't have the money back.
We continually asked for a new contract or something in writing to make us staying in the house after the end of the AST legal. On the last day of the AST, we received an e-mail saying we could stay "until either we find another property or the house is sold".
Does this invalidate the S21? Or was the S21 invalidated when they said they would draw up a contract for a new tenancy and we agreed to a rent rise? And if so, does that then imply we needed to give a month's notice, eventhough we were told to move out as quickly as possible?
It all feels so messy, and I don't know where we stand. I just know we can't afford to give them over £300 as a penalty for doing as they asked.
I think that you have just answered your own question, you have your email saying 'until either we find another property or the house is sold'
I woud write a letter to landlord, copy to LA, send it recorded delivery, list the days you were there and the rent you owe, state how much you have over paid, gie either or both 7 days, no longer to repay the extra rent, tell them that after the 7 days, if they haven't paid, you will take out a summons in the County Court without any further contact with them and DO IT.
This needs to be nipped in the bud or it will go on forever, see eager learners thread, set a time limit nowLoretta0 -
Franklee, are you saying the Sword of Damocles has acted in the tenants favour? IS that a first?
That depends if you think being asked to move in two weeks and the ensuing chaos is a good thing. Without the SoD the landlord would have given smeef a proper two months notice once he had decided he wanted smeff to leave and everyone would have known where they stood.
Landlords should be careful how they use the S21 or they may end up with a property unexpectedly empty. Once issued the landlord cannot unilaterally withdraw the S21 by invalidating it. For example if there was a case where the day before the tenant is due to leave the landlord says they want the tenant to stay the tenant can still leave as planned. The validity of the S21 only becomes an issue if the tenant challenges it. Once issued the S21 stands unless both parties agree to it's withdrawal or the tenant successfully challenges it's validity.
In smeef's case there wasn't an agreement to withdraw the S21 as the landlord still wanted smeef to leave and smeef was complying by leaving.Does the landlord accepting the rent after the end of the original term show that he accepts the tenancy has gone periodic?
The tenancy goes periodic automatically. Acceptance of rent makes no difference. Neither affect the S21.
smeef, Loretta is right, put your claim in.0
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