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Serving S21,Tenancy Deposit rules and Sword of Damocles
Comments
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BobProperty wrote: »I haven't read the details of the law on this but the logic works like this IMHO:
You can not issue a S21 notice until the tenancy has commenced.
Can I just hijack this thread and check - when you say the tenancy has commenced do you mean the AST has been signed or the actual tenancy has started?
We signed an AST and S21 on January 22nd for a tenancy that actually began on February 24th. Is the S21 valid or invalid?0 -
IMHO it is invalid. The S21 can only be served once the tenancy has started. I don't have my landlord notes with me, but I think the law says "during" the tenancy.Can I just hijack this thread and check - when you say the tenancy has commenced do you mean the AST has been signed or the actual tenancy has started?
We signed an AST and S21 on January 22nd for a tenancy that actually began on February 24th. Is the S21 valid or invalid?
Agree with scrummymummy, Johnindebt's S21 is invalid for two reasons.A house isn't a home without a cat.
Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.
I have writer's block - I can't begin to tell you about it.
You told me again you preferred handsome men but for me you would make an exception.
It's a recession when your neighbour loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.0 -
Who cares when the landlord will be paying out 3 x deposit and can't issue a S21. (I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here clutton"" Dodgy tenants will also be able to claim non-receipt of the Tenancy Deposit details and the S21 unless landlords are careful.""
a really stupid tenant might claim this but they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they did - if they claim not to have received details in the post from the Deposit Scheme administrators, how then can they then reclaim their deposit if they are not living at the Deposit Address - and how can they be living at the address if they did not receive post ?
, trying to get people to think what might happen)
Wohoo! Sweet Passive Income! (sorry if you don't understand that one, it's a Casey Serin joke)A good landlord will include their deposit scheme details in the AST along with the "prescribed" information. I now hand my tenants 6 pages of T&Cs from the free DPS scheme based in Bristol. And yes the landlord does get the interest (i got 18p recently, less tax of 04p so i actually received 14p).
Once again civil servant law writers not thinking things through?If a landlord has made a deduction and it is disputed by the tenant, the landlord can refuse to go through the Scheme Dispute Resolution Process, and can force the tenant to take him to court to reclaim deposit deductions - so we are then back to square one before the 2004 Act came into force.
I'm off to look that up, I'm certain I was taught that the tenancy had to have started.I think there is a great deal of speculation talked about on this site with regard to Section 21 - a Section 21 can be served at any time after the AST is legally binding - ie after signature of the AST.A house isn't a home without a cat.
Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.
I have writer's block - I can't begin to tell you about it.
You told me again you preferred handsome men but for me you would make an exception.
It's a recession when your neighbour loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.0 -
Can I just hijack this thread and check - when you say the tenancy has commenced do you mean the AST has been signed or the actual tenancy has started?
We signed an AST and S21 on January 22nd for a tenancy that actually began on February 24th. Is the S21 valid or invalid?
I would say that in your case your LL would have a problem. An AST is only "that" if it is capable of running for a period no less then 6 months.
If you can "prove" that you actually moved in on Feb 24th. then the Sect. 21 is invalid. Dates are "all" important on these notices as 4 months into the tenancy the 2 month notice period of the s.21 starts requiring you to leave (without court proceedings) by the 22nd. July.
From Feb 24th to July 22nd is a period less then 6 months so the one you have signed is invalid.0 -
The issue here I suspect is that the S21 ends 6 months and a day after feb 24th. Therefore date wise it would appear to comply with the law. However, my understanding is that it has to be issued after the "commencement" of the tenancy (note I've changed the phrase from "during"). The tenancy doesn't commence until the first day of the tenancy, not the date of the agreement. Therefore the S21 is invalid as it was not served after the commencement of the tenancy.I would say that in your case your LL would have a problem. An AST is only "that" if it is capable of running for a period no less then 6 months.
If you can "prove" that you actually moved in on Feb 24th. then the Sect. 21 is invalid. Dates are "all" important on these notices as 4 months into the tenancy the 2 month notice period of the s.21 starts requiring you to leave (without court proceedings) by the 22nd. July.
From Feb 24th to July 22nd is a period less then 6 months so the one you have signed is invalid.A house isn't a home without a cat.
Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.
I have writer's block - I can't begin to tell you about it.
You told me again you preferred handsome men but for me you would make an exception.
It's a recession when your neighbour loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.0 -
""And yes the landlord does get the interest (i got 18p recently, less tax of 04p so i actually received 14p)""
i rechecked this - the tenant gets the interest - but i received this interest as the tenant had absconded and so was not contactable.
i stand corrected on my earlier post ""Section 21 can be served at any time after the AST is legally binding - ie after signature of the AST"
i believe it is after the commencement date of the AST - ie the date from which rent is due
""Dodgy tenants will also be able to claim non-receipt of the Tenancy Deposit details and the S21 unless landlords are careful""
the tenancy deposit scheme write to both landlord and tenant when the deposit is lodged, giving each an ID number the deposit on :ID number. Even if the tenant claims not to have received the notification, the Scheme will prove that it was sent - so tenant will not be able to claim 3 x deposit as compensation - who do you think a judge will believe - a Deposit scheme like DPS which has been doing this for 8 years, or one mischievious tenant ?0 -
""And yes the landlord does get the interest (i got 18p recently, less tax of 04p so i actually received 14p)""
i rechecked this - the tenant gets the interest - but i received this interest as the tenant had absconded and so was not contactable.
i stand corrected on my earlier post ""Section 21 can be served at any time after the AST is legally binding - ie after signature of the AST"
i believe it is after the commencement date of the AST - ie the date from which rent is due
""Dodgy tenants will also be able to claim non-receipt of the Tenancy Deposit details and the S21 unless landlords are careful""
the tenancy deposit scheme write to both landlord and tenant when the deposit is lodged, giving each an ID number the deposit on :ID number. Even if the tenant claims not to have received the notification, the Scheme will prove that it was sent - so tenant will not be able to claim 3 x deposit as compensation - who do you think a judge will believe - a Deposit scheme like DPS which has been doing this for 8 years, or one mischievious tenant ?
Blimey clutton, you don't usually make errors......you having an off day?The only thing to do with good advice is to pass it on. It is never of any use to oneself. (Oscar Wilde);)0 -
Just for clarity.....
A Tenancy Agreement can be signed prior to the commencement of the actual tenancy. The date of signature just makes it a Legal Deed (document).
The dates contained within the Agreement detail the start and end date of the tenancy itself. For example, 24th January 2007 up to (and including) 23rd July 2007...would be a 6 month AST...even if the tenancy Agreement was signed on 12th January 2007.
An AST can be granted for any period of time, although it is usual practice to grant for periods in 'chunks' of 6 months or a year....if one wanted to, you can grant an AST for a period of 2, 3 or 4 or 15 or 13 months, or whatever, as long as the tenancy exceeds a period (a month generally!)
A Section 21 Notice cannot legally be served until AFTER the tenancy has commenced...even if it is only 2 minutes after!...hence the requirement to time stamp all documents if you do intend to serve one! AND....since 06th April 2007, a Section 21 Notice cannot now be legally served until the tenant has been given the prescribed information about the relevant tenancy deposit Scheme that will be used to cover their deposit AND that deposit has been registered.The only thing to do with good advice is to pass it on. It is never of any use to oneself. (Oscar Wilde);)0 -
hi scrummy - i am only trying to do 10 things at once here !! think i'll stop and go get some dinner !!0
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A Section 21 notice can not "expire" before the end of the "term" or "period" of the tenancy agreement. Therefore correct dating of these notices is vital or they become invalid.0
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