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HELP! CEL County Court Business Centre Claim (x2)
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Johnersh - if a PPC says 'POC to follow', should the D even do the AOS?
@couponmad Correct, there is no need to do an AOS if you haven't received full Particulars.
Here an AOS has been served so we'll work with that. On my analysis it doesn't change the fact that the CPR rules state clearly that 14 days for preparation of the defence runs from service of particulars and those on the claim form are insufficient to form the basis of a claim.
In some cases it is critical no AOS is served (for example if proceedings are served to the wrong address). Hence there is a slight need for caution before advising the AOS should be routinely filed in all cases.0 -
this was why I told this OP to TELEPHONE the court and find out and tell US (that is also what I meant about "how hard can it be ?")
in the time they spent replying today they could have phoned the court and enlightened all of us before lunchtime
they need to appreciate that when we say PHONE AND FIND OUT , we mean ring the ccbc and speak to a person and find out , due to the new changes
LOC123 has said in this thread today that people need to write to the court , with certain wordings
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5732603
that`s 2 "lawyers" advising this OP on what to get done, plus others like myself and CM and nosferatu all saying ring up and find out , as well as other GOOD advice
this OP needs to do more reading , more phoning , stop being stubborn and argumentative and follow what they are being told
yes we know you are new and dont understand , but we are all learning and there are over a dozen similar threads on here too about the same issues so you are NOT alone !
so find the time , do the research and help us to help you, after all , you are getting this advice for free , so start giving back and dont make assumptions
once you know what needs to be done and by what COURT deadline , you will have a better plan of action so tell us so we can tell everybody else (or tell them yourself on their threads , ie collaborate)
and as Johnnersh says, dont make it easy for the claimant , so maybe phoning and taking the foot OFF THE GAS is the correct approach
I would not be sending an email without a phone call to back it up, because the CCBC is snowed under and it will get lost, I an sure the CCBC is very busy dealing with similar queries
what the OP needs to understand is that in a few months time we will know the answers, once people like them have provided us with those answers
so PHONE , check , report back , tell us , so we learn for the next newbies
in general, the correct reply is
"thank you for all your replies, I will do what you say right away and over the next few days , and report back with the correct information so I can get bespoke advice in return"0 -
I think the newbies thread needs to be changed - we have seen lots of these "PoC to follow" claims being issued over the last few days. OPs need to understand that in these circumstances they do not need to complete the AoS or worry about the defence (but it is wise for them to check with the court after the 14 days has passed whether or not the PoC have been filed, because there's always the possibility they have gone missing in the post).
Technically, once the Claimant is out of time to serve the PoC it must apply for permission. However, this is MCOL and it may well be a shoe-in. So my preference is to be proactive and ask the court to strike out the claim.
Before you do so, wait until they are at least 7 days late then phone the court to check PoC have not been filed.
if they haven't, then write to the court and ask it to make an order striking out the claim under CPR 3.4. You need to say in the letter when the claim was issued and served, and when the PoC should have been served by. Point out that the court has the power to make an order of its own volition, without requiring an actual application: its inherent powers to make orders of its own initiative, and to summarily dispose of issues which do not need full investigation and trial, as part of its duty of active case management are contained in CPR Rule 1.4(2)(c) and Practice Direction 26, paragraph 5.1.
Alternatively, the court also has the power to treat a letter as an application without requiring you to issue a specific application - this power is contained in CPR Part 23.3(2)(b)
However, the court can refuse to do either and can require you to apply, in which case you have to complete a form N244 and pay £100 and ask for it to be dealt with on the papers, without a hearing. You must ask for an order for costs if you end up having to do an N244.
Please note that this may not get you off the hook in the long run. Technically the PPC could re-issue a new claim, and do it properly the second time.
If you end up having to formally apply (ie if the court refuses to act on your letter and tells you to issue an N244), you must ask for a costs order. Ask for a specific amount - the time you have taken to deal with the matter at the allowed hourly rate for a Litigant in Person of £19 per hour (as permitted under Practice Direction 46 (paragraph 3.4) and CPR Rules 45.39(5)(b) and 46(4)(b)) plus the issue fee of £100. So you'll be asking for £100 plus say 2 hours at £19 per hour, a total of £138, payable within 14 days.Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.0 -
Personally, I too would apply to strike,
but I was mindful that not everyone has the £100 they may need to reach for.
I also think the newbies thread should highlight that some forumites will be eligible to reclaim their fees (means tested).Please note that this may not get you off the hook in the long run. Technically the PPC could re-issue a new claim, and do it properly the second time.
This is an important point - the risk of pyrrhic victory. Nevertheless for smaller cases (ie. Not multiple tickets) the Claimant may cut their losses at that point.0 -
Loadsofchildren123 wrote: »Alternatively, the court also has the power to treat a letter as an application without requiring you to issue a specific application - this power is contained in CPR Part 23.3(2)(b)0
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I think the newbies thread needs to be changed
okey dokey, your wish is my command. Can you or Johnersh suggest a sentence or paragraph to explain?PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
This may work for inclusion in the updated newbies section. Very much a first draft. I may edit/tweak and I'm open to suggestions....
SERVICE OF THE PARTICULARS OF CLAIM
There are twomethods by which Particulars of Claim (the details of what the claim is about) may be served upon you as the Defendant.
Your timescales for preparing a defence will vary in accordance with which approach the claimant has adopted, so read the documents that you have received carefully.
Option A - Particulars set out on Claim Form
With this option all of the details of the claim are set out on the claim form itself (however scant). There is a character limit of approximately 1000 letters, so don't expect detail. All of the details will have been completed by the claimant online and the documents dispatched by the county court bulk claims centre in Northampton. You can double check that this option applies to you by reading the last sentence. At no point should it refer to further particulars being sent by post.
If this applies your timescales are:
(1) count 5 days from the date on the claim form (this is your "service date")
(2) add 14 days if you have completed and returned the Acknowledgement of Service form
(3) add a further 14 days for the defence. Thus the maximum time is just over a complete calendar month.
Option B: Particulars to follow
This option applies where the Claimant wishes to provide more detail. This is increasingly common following recent changes to the pre-action protocols that apply to debt claims.
In this scenario you will have received the claim form in the usual way. The particulars may state a date and amount of claim, but the documentation will be automatically endorsed with the words"I will serve additional Particulars of Claim within 14 days"
If that wording appears, you should wait. You are not required to respond to incomplete documents. No time limits apply until you receive complete Particulars of Claim.
These will be sent by the claimants Solicitor not the court. The deemed date of service is the second business day after posting, so check for the date on the covering letter. If there is any doubt you may consider asking for their certificate of service.
You have 14 days from the date of service of the full Particulars to prepare a defence (civil procedure rules part 15). However, the rules also permit you to first acknowledge service (after being served with the full Particulars, not before) and then to prepare and serve your Defence.
The Acknowledgement of Service form will have been provided with the claim form but should be completed and returned to court only once the full Particulars are received - at that point, it should (in most cases) be returned immediately. This extends the time limit by 14 days, providing a maximum of 28 days to finalise the defence (in addition to the time since the claim form was sent).
What if...
If the Claimant fails to serve the rest of the Particulars within 14 days of the claim form they are technically out of time to rely on particulars at all. This gives rise to tactical considerations as to how you wish to proceed. There are a number of threads considering this [links], which is also a developing area of case law insofar as it relates to small claims and parking tickets.
The first step is not to simply defend as though there has been no error. The claimant should be contacted. As a lay defendant you do not have any power to absolve the Claimant from any failure "it is not on your gift to give" given the express provisions of the civil procedure rules. Thus, in most cases, the Claimant should find themselves obliged to apply to court for "relief from sanction." Depending on the facts or total delays, depends whether the Claimants claim will be struck or permitted to proceed. However, you are expected to be reasonable and a delay of 24-48 hours is unlikely to be sufficient such that the court will immediately strike out the Claimants claim. If taking the point, do remember to respect the time limits on your own defence. By all means cause the Claimant problems, but do not assume no defence will need to be served or that the claimants default gives you an automatic time extension (it doesn't).
It should also be borne in mind that this may not be a magic bullet; the Claimant could simply reissue a brand new claim as in most cases they will be within the 6 year limitation period.0 -
This is brilliant Johnersh. I'm sure I speak on behalf of others when I say 'thank you' for doing this.0
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+1. I’ve already bookmarked the post.
@Johnersh, you’ve definitely added a dimension to the forum (as well as LoC) that has been largely absent since the days of zzzLazyDaisy, a retired sol who contributed a great deal a few years ago, even though the forum then was nowhere near as ‘legally busy’ as it is now.Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
The first step is not to simply defend as though there has been no error. The defendant should be contacted. As a lay defendant you do not have any power to absolve the Claimant from any failure "it is not on your gift to give" given the express provisions of the civil procedure rules. Thus, in most cases, the Claimant should find themselves obliged to apply to court for "relief from sanction." .
Don't you mean "Claimant"?0
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