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Are degrees in the UK value for money?

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Comments

  • novice_1
    novice_1 Posts: 11 Forumite
    Not sure why you appear to be on a campaign against maths degrees Zxcv? In the example you mention they would have had training from their employer on the correct way to act (at least in recent years). Most skills can be taught or picked up on the job, but the hard skills of a maths/engineering/physics degree are more difficult to learn later.
  • itsallabitmuch
    itsallabitmuch Posts: 51 Forumite
    I personally think that degrees CAN be excellent value for money.

    I completed my BSc in September 2015.The >£9k per year I took out in student loans to cover my tuition paid for much, much more than the lectures I attended and the work I had marked that went towards my classification.

    A month after completing my BSc, I started my PhD - this is fully funded, and I receive a tax-free stipend for studying. The very fact that my degree got me a fully-funded studentship made my degree excellent value.

    I also do ad-hoc lecturing and marking work, for which I currently receive £35.20 ph (it isn't a lot of work to be fair, and we are paid at an equalish rate to junior lecturing staff).

    Never before did I realise just what goes in to being an academic at a university. It isn't just teaching and marking. It's endless hours of prep. It's ensuring that you are up-to-date with literally ALL of the research in you area and slightly beyond, just in case a student asks you about something. It's making time for office hours for students to book in to see you, then seeing them on you "own time" because those hours (which are regulated to a set amount per staff member) are not enough. It's the constant demands on you as a professional, but also as a pastoral support worker. It's being a personal tutor. It's being a mentor. It's having to engage in more and more postgraduate training and qualifications to ensure that you can support each and every student to the highest level. It's being a career adviser. It's having contacts to assist your students with projects and data collection. It's knowing exactly which journals are seeking exactly what type of publication to get your students the best possible shot at getting published (both post- and under-graduates). It's begging local organisations to deliver free training to your students to boost their CV. It's begging local employers to offer voluntary (or paid where possible) experience in various settings. It's being a benefits advisor to those students who need extra help. It's being a friendship / relationship counsellor. It's being so, so much more...

    That said, a degree can only be good value if you get something out of it. Whether that be something professional or something personal, is down to the individual. I went to university to get me on track for an academic career, but I know many who went because it was something they wanted to achieve, rather than to help them on the jobs market.
  • aurelieweill
    aurelieweill Posts: 34 Forumite
    Degrees in the UK are a rip-off and over-valued. Just check starting salaries and see how poorly most degrees perform. You could study engineering in eg Germany, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden or the Netherlands paying virtually no tuition fees and the cost of living, specially accommodation is also cheaper.
  • adindas
    adindas Posts: 6,856 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 24 March 2017 at 9:26AM
    aurelieweill wrote: »
    Degrees in the UK are a rip-off and over-valued. Just check starting salaries and see how poorly most degrees perform. You could study engineering in eg Germany, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden or the Netherlands paying virtually no tuition fees and the cost of living, specially accommodation is also cheaper.

    What you are saying is right. In some countries in the EU you do not need or even if you pay, you will pay tiny tuition fee. There are still few more to add like Finland, Switzerland, Austria, etc.

    The main problem here is that
    - You will need to master the local language at the level needed to study at the university (not just basic). Unfortunately this is not a favorable option for many youngsters in the UK.
    - But the real barrier here is to gain entry. The competition to enter the university is fierce. Place are limited, you will need to compete with the local and international applicants. Many local people who wanted to study at the university could not go to university due to low performance and the low mark they got on their previous study. While here in the UK everyone is potentially could go to university. There are enough place at the second, third tier universities here in the UK. many program are under subscribed.
    - Many youngsters in the UK do not keen to study abroad.

    Many universities you mention are also conducting study in English aiming for international students. For this you will still need to pay, maybe similar to the one you would have paid in the UK anyway.

    Look at here for instance Sweden
    https://www.educations.com/study-guides/europe/study-in-sweden/tuition-fees-6110

    "Tuition fees in Sweden range from approximately SEK 80,000 per year (approximately 8,300 EUR or 9,200 USD as of Oct, 2016) to SEK 130,000 (or approximately 13,000 EUR or $14,600 USD as of Oct, 2016)"

    The universities you mentioned are funded by the government. The UK government has used a different model of funding the universities.
  • adindas
    adindas Posts: 6,856 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 24 March 2017 at 9:20AM
    If you ask these people many of them might be saying "NOT WORTHY"

    ERUDIO student loans help
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4923210

    Put yourself on their on their shoes if you have been chased by debt collectors for most of your life, how stressful the life it is.

    If you ask the doctors, nurses, dentist, engineers, financial annalists, accountants, who are paying back their student loan most of them will be saying it is worthy.

    If you are asking the people who fund the system, especially the one who are in the high income tax bracket, they will say not worthy if the student loan is not payback in full.

    So the answer to this question will depend on where you sit.

    One thing reasonable people could learn is to avoid the same mistake which has already been statistically proven.

    Unfortunately many youngster in the UK here prefer to study what they like not what they could potentially make use of it. The fact that many of them are not using their own money to fund their study does not help to make the right decision.

    To do what you like, you do not need to go to university and potentially left with nothing get better but debt is mounting.

    It is the role of parent who have seen all of this to explain to the youngsters who have got much experience in life.
  • gfplux
    gfplux Posts: 4,985 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Hung up my suit!
    adindas wrote: »
    What you are saying is right. In some countries in the EU you do not need or even if you pay, you will pay tiny tuition fee. There are still few more to add like Finland, Switzerland, Austria, etc.

    The main problem here is that
    - You will need to master the local language at the level needed to study at the university (not just basic). Unfortunately this is not a favorable option for many youngsters in the UK.
    - But the real barrier here is to gain entry. The competition to enter the university is fierce. Place are limited, you will need to compete with the local and international applicants. Many local people who wanted to study at the university could not go to university due to low performance and the low mark they got on their previous study. While here in the UK everyone is potentially could go to university. There are enough place at the second, third tier universities here in the UK. many program are under subscribed.
    - Many youngsters in the UK do not keen to study abroad.

    Many universities you mention are also conducting study in English aiming for international students. For this you will still need to pay, maybe similar to the one you would have paid in the UK anyway.

    Look at here for instance Sweden
    https://www.educations.com/study-guides/europe/study-in-sweden/tuition-fees-6110

    "Tuition fees in Sweden range from approximately SEK 80,000 per year (approximately 8,300 EUR or 9,200 USD as of Oct, 2016) to SEK 130,000 (or approximately 13,000 EUR or $14,600 USD as of Oct, 2016)"

    The universities you mentioned are funded by the government. The UK government has used a different model of funding the universities.

    Are you sure of your facts?
    I live in Luxembourg.
    My understanding and experience with friends of my Daughters (she studied in the Luxembourg state system but chose to go to an English uni unlike many of her friends) who have studied around Europe.
    If you have passed your BAC you can EASILY gain entrance to a Degree course in many, many European University's. In fact in the first days the lecture halls are packed to overflowing. They do not limit numbers but the numbers fall due to natural attrition.
    Also many many University's have degrees held in the English language.

    I will bow to your superior knowledge if you do know better.
    There will be no Brexit dividend for Britain.
  • adindas
    adindas Posts: 6,856 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 25 March 2017 at 10:49AM
    gfplux wrote: »
    Are you sure of your facts?
    I live in Luxembourg.
    My understanding and experience with friends of my Daughters (she studied in the Luxembourg state system but chose to go to an English uni unlike many of her friends) who have studied around Europe.
    If you have passed your BAC you can EASILY gain entrance to a Degree course in many, many European University's. In fact in the first days the lecture halls are packed to overflowing. They do not limit numbers but the numbers fall due to natural attrition.
    Also many many University's have degrees held in the English language.

    I will bow to your superior knowledge if you do know better.

    [FONT=&quot]Well, I am talking about the fact

    Look at here for instance. This is one of the top engineering school in Switzerland and Europe. If you want to study Tuition fee of CHF 580/semester[FONT=&quot]. [FONT=&quot]Compared[/FONT] to £9000/yr in the UK. It is explained here

    [/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]https://www.ethz.ch/en/studies/financial/tuition-fees.html (the study is in German)

    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]"There are three different kinds of admission to the first semester of a Bachelor programme:[/FONT]
    1. [FONT=&quot]Admission without entrance examination[/FONT]
    2. [FONT=&quot]Admission conditional upon passing reduced entrance examination (PDF, 262 KB) (4 subjects)[/FONT]
    3. [FONT=&quot]Admission conditional upon passing comprehensive entrance examination (PDF, 318 KB) (8 subjects) "[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]For 1, you will need to have Swiss Matur[FONT=&quot]a[/FONT] Explained here:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]https://www.ethz.ch/en/studies/registration-application/bachelor/swiss-matriculation.html

    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]This is the same with Pre University matriculation where the applicants are already pre-examined / selected so no more examination [FONT=&quot]is[/FONT] required.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    For 2&3 you will need to pass entry examination.
    [FONT=&quot]About Lang[FONT=&quot]uage Requirement:[/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]"Language requirements
    The language of instruction in all Bachelor programmes is German. However, some single courses may be held in English or French. Proficiency in German is one of the prerequisites for admission."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    As I mentioned previously there are some universities are offering tuition in English aiming for international students, many of them are private universities or even if it is a state sponsored universities, you will still need to pay quite a lot of money. I have given previous link # 447[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    In Case of Sweden
    https://www.educations.com/study-guides/europe/study-in-sweden/tuition-fees-6110[/FONT]
    "Tuition fees in Sweden range from approximately SEK 80,000 per year (approximately 8,300 EUR or 9,200 USD as of Oct, 2016) to SEK 130,000 (or approximately 13,000 EUR or $14,600 USD as of Oct, 2016)"
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In case of Switzerland do search about IMD business school in Lausanne Switzerland is a well-known business and Management school where the language of instruction of all programme are in English.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I spent a few minutes but could not find info on their websites regarding tuition fee. But I am pretty sure you will pay similar or even higher than the fee you would have paid in the UK.
    [/FONT]
  • happyandcontented
    happyandcontented Posts: 2,768 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 1,000 Posts I've been Money Tipped!
    Europe is competing to attract UK students and many universities do have lectures in English.

    https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/international/europe/

    "English medium tuition helps to overcome the challenge of language at an increasing number of leading European universities"
  • Cakeguts
    Cakeguts Posts: 7,627 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    adindas wrote: »
    If you ask these people many of them might be saying "NOT WORTHY"

    ERUDIO student loans help
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4923210

    Put yourself on their on their shoes if you have been chased by debt collectors for most of your life, how stressful the life it is.

    If you ask the doctors, nurses, dentist, engineers, financial annalists, accountants, who are paying back their student loan most of them will be saying it is worthy.

    If you are asking the people who fund the system, especially the one who are in the high income tax bracket, they will say not worthy if the student loan is not payback in full.

    So the answer to this question will depend on where you sit.

    One thing reasonable people could learn is to avoid the same mistake which has already been statistically proven.

    Unfortunately many youngster in the UK here prefer to study what they like not what they could potentially make use of it. The fact that many of them are not using their own money to fund their study does not help to make the right decision.

    To do what you like, you do not need to go to university and potentially left with nothing get better but debt is mounting.

    It is the role of parent who have seen all of this to explain to the youngsters who have got much experience in life.

    The problem is the UK is that many of the degrees are not worth anything because the content of the course is too easy. However many parents don't realise this because they didn't go to university and they and the students think that all degrees are equal and that anyone getting a degree will automatically be guaranteed a graduate level job whereas in reality only about 10% of all graduates get jobs that need a degree. Schools don't help because in the UK there are now teachers who have degrees from the universities that offer a very low level of education so they don't understand that most of their students will be wasting their time studying at university. Until the teacher training colleges stop taking in students from universities where the degrees are the level of education that people used to get taught to at school 40 years ago the quality of advice will keep falling.

    In the UK we now have teachers who are educated to the standard of an 18 year old of 40 years ago advising students to go to university to make up their education by paying for it at university because the teachers are not capable of teaching it at school.

    There is also the situation that schools use the number of their students who have got places at a university to attract parents who don't understand that many of the universities are not worth attending.

    What parents should be doing is complaining about their children having to pay to reach a level of education that they used to get for free at school. At the moment students in the UK pay around £18,000 in fees and living costs for education that used to be provided for them free at school or at the local college. If the level of education in school was raised back to the level of 40 years ago many of the students wouldn't need to take out student loans at all they could get to the same level as university by the time they were 18 at school or at the local college. Some of the local colleges that used to provide this free education have now changed their names to universities and now charge students for it. That is a scandal. It is national private education by the back door.
  • gfplux
    gfplux Posts: 4,985 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Hung up my suit!
    adindas wrote: »
    [FONT=&quot]Well, I am talking about the fact

    Look at here for instance. This is one of the top engineering school in Switzerland and Europe. If you want to study Tuition fee of CHF 580/semester[FONT=&quot]. [FONT=&quot]Compared[/FONT] to £9000/yr in the UK. It is explained here

    [/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]https://www.ethz.ch/en/studies/financial/tuition-fees.html (the study is in German)

    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]"There are three different kinds of admission to the first semester of a Bachelor programme:[/FONT]
    1. [FONT=&quot]Admission without entrance examination[/FONT]
    2. [FONT=&quot]Admission conditional upon passing reduced entrance examination (PDF, 262 KB) (4 subjects)[/FONT]
    3. [FONT=&quot]Admission conditional upon passing comprehensive entrance examination (PDF, 318 KB) (8 subjects) "[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]For 1, you will need to have Swiss Matur[FONT=&quot]a[/FONT] Explained here:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]https://www.ethz.ch/en/studies/registration-application/bachelor/swiss-matriculation.html

    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]This is the same with Pre University matriculation where the applicants are already pre-examined / selected so no more examination [FONT=&quot]is[/FONT] required.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    For 2&3 you will need to pass entry examination.
    [FONT=&quot]About Lang[FONT=&quot]uage Requirement:[/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]"Language requirements
    The language of instruction in all Bachelor programmes is German. However, some single courses may be held in English or French. Proficiency in German is one of the prerequisites for admission."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    As I mentioned previously there are some universities are offering tuition in English aiming for international students, many of them are private universities or even if it is a state sponsored universities, you will still need to pay quite a lot of money. I have given previous link # 447[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    In Case of Sweden
    https://www.educations.com/study-guides/europe/study-in-sweden/tuition-fees-6110[/FONT]
    "Tuition fees in Sweden range from approximately SEK 80,000 per year (approximately 8,300 EUR or 9,200 USD as of Oct, 2016) to SEK 130,000 (or approximately 13,000 EUR or $14,600 USD as of Oct, 2016)"
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In case of Switzerland do search about IMD business school in Lausanne Switzerland is a well-known business and Management school where the language of instruction of all programme are in English.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I spent a few minutes but could not find info on their websites regarding tuition fee. But I am pretty sure you will pay similar or even higher than the fee you would have paid in the UK.
    [/FONT]

    Sorry,
    Hello,
    I only spoke to your comment about the EU.
    I can not speak about Switzerland, although I know a number of Luxembourgers do go to Switzerland to study. (All luxembourgers who pass the BAC speak a number of languages including German and French)
    I only speak as a normal family, not super rich or super connected.
    You have said, it is difficult to get in to a European University. That they are highly selective. All I reply is that living in Luxembourg I see this differently. I have personal experience, you have Google.
    I am not sure why we would be having this argument as you have information, I have information, why don't we exchange this information in a civilised and constructive way.
    If your agenda is to rubbish a European Uni education then say it.
    My agenda is the opposite.
    There will be no Brexit dividend for Britain.
This discussion has been closed.
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