Are degrees in the UK value for money?

kabayiri

ringo_24601 wrote: »

Not to mention.. employed as what? If half the graduates from Keele are working in coffee shops and call centres then it doesn't reflect well on this study.

How about a '5 years after graduation average wage' study? http://www.graddiary.com/careers-advice/uk-university-graduate-salary-rankings/

http://www.graddiary.com/careers-advice/uk-university-graduate-salary-rankings/

But what sort of study is that? How did they gather information? How biased is it? The numbers look off.. they're too high. I doubt the sample was big enough and representative of the graduate population to capture the low end of the salaries.

They don't all agree anyway. A senior lecturer at Hull used the 6 months after graduating point as the point to record the numbers in jobs. If I recall correctly, Keele did the same.

But...York don't buy into this. They think the measure has flaws.

It's clear that any measure has a certain bias.

Chapuys

It all depends which degree you take. I did a History Degree and it got me nowhere. I then did a teaching PGCE and I'm now a teacher.

[Deleted User]

Chapuys wrote: »

It all depends which degree you take. I did a History Degree and it got me nowhere. I then did a teaching PGCE and I'm now a teacher.

Of course - degree subject is probably more important than your institution, and final grade is probably in the middle.

There are some subjects where you'd need to go to a good uni AND get a good result to do well from it - History is probably a good example of it. Since this subject mainly reflects how scholarly you are. There isn't a great demand for historians, but there is a demand for educated people who are well read, can think well and are articulate. Showing you went to a good uni (i.e. high entry requirements) and got a 1st or 2:1 (very able) is important.

BUT.. if you studied a subject where the content was important and directly applicable to a job (e.g. IT, engineering) then your university isn't so important. Your grade might be though.

Cakeguts

There is a school near us where I noticed the other day that they advertise on their gate the percentage of A level students who go to university. What it carefully doesn't say is which universities. I feel very sorry for the students at that school because the school must either be putting pressure on the student to attend university or not offering information on alternatives just so that they can advertise on their gate. I think this is appalling the school doesn't care about their students as long as they go to any university so that they can attract new parents.

happyandcontented

Cakeguts wrote: »

There is a school near us where I noticed the other day that they advertise on their gate the percentage of A level students who go to university. What it carefully doesn't say is which universities. I feel very sorry for the students at that school because the school must either be putting pressure on the student to attend university or not offering information on alternatives just so that they can advertise on their gate. I think this is appalling the school doesn't care about their students as long as they go to any university so that they can attract new parents.

I am not sure that is entirely fair. On such a banner they can only put a small amount of information. How could they add in the name of every university chosen by all their students?

Additionally, the key word here is chosen, schools do not choose universities, students do. If they cannot differentiate between good, mediocre and poor then perhaps they should not be going at all. Research is key when choosing a university both for the student and for their parents. Parents/schools can offer guidance but ultimately the choice is with the young person.

From a banner such as you describe I cannot see how you can arrive at your conclusion.

Pennywise

happyandcontented wrote: »

I am not sure that is entirely fair. On such a banner they can only put a small amount of information. How could they add in the name of every university chosen by all their students?

Additionally, the key word here is chosen, schools do not choose universities, students do. If they cannot differentiate between good, mediocre and poor then perhaps they should not be going at all. Research is key when choosing a university both for the student and for their parents. Parents/schools can offer guidance but ultimately the choice is with the young person.

From a banner such as you describe I cannot see how you can arrive at your conclusion.

If the A level results are generally poor/mediocre, then the pupils will only have the choice of the poorer universities who offer places to pupils with relatively poor A level results. They won't stand a chance of a good course in a Russell Group Uni with 3 D's, but some of the poly converted pseudo uni's will be happy to offer places for 3 E's for Mickey mouse courses. That's why giving figures for numbers going to Uni is completely meaningless and bordering on misrepresentation. Doesn't matter how much research or guidance is involved, low grades at A level exclude you from the best/top courses/unis.

happyandcontented

Pennywise wrote: »

If the A level results are generally poor/mediocre, then the pupils will only have the choice of the poorer universities who offer places to pupils with relatively poor A level results. They won't stand a chance of a good course in a Russell Group Uni with 3 D's, but some of the poly converted pseudo uni's will be happy to offer places for 3 E's for Mickey mouse courses. That's why giving figures for numbers going to Uni is completely meaningless and bordering on misrepresentation. Doesn't matter how much research or guidance is involved, low grades at A level exclude you from the best/top courses/unis.

I couldn't agree more, but by just looking at a banner you cannot tell what the stat is made up of. You need to dig deeper, so that was my point. You cannot know that they are misleading you and you can only be misled if you don't do your own research. This research would include what grades universities are looking for and other stats, such as how many places are ring fenced for foreign students thus lowering your chances of getting a place.

The sixth form colleges my kids attended only steered their students towards "good" universities, so their stats would have looked like the above or better, but because of their own rigourous entry requirements their students would achieve the grades needed.

Zxcv_Bnm

Chapuys wrote: »

It all depends which degree you take. I did a History Degree and it got me nowhere. I then did a teaching PGCE and I'm now a teacher.

You probably didn't work out how to market your history degree properly.

When you did your degree a typical essay question was something like, How did we get from thinking X about the Tudors in 1712 to thinking Y about them in 1850 to thinking Z about them now? - right? If you can parse that question out and answer it sensibly, you are equipped to do any job where the key questions are unclear and the answers are qualitative. Classics same thing. English same thing. First task is figure out the question. Maths? Maybe, maybe not, the dullards in that need clear questions and one right quantitative answer otherwise they're flummoxed.

There is a famous Oxbridge interview question designed to test this - "How do you know that 2 plus 2 equals 4 in the past?"

BobQ

Zxcv_Bnm wrote: »

First task is figure out the question. Maths? Maybe, maybe not, the dullards in that need clear questions and one right quantitative answer otherwise they're flummoxed.

You mean mathematicians need to get the right answer and show how they did it. Whereas historians can waffle on about things knowling that everything is a matter of opinion and any answer will do.

Your ignorance of mathematics (that it is all quantitative) shows quite clearly who the dullard is.

Zxcv_Bnm

BobQ wrote: »

You mean mathematicians need to get the right answer and show how they did it. Whereas historians can waffle on about things knowling that everything is a matter of opinion and any answer will do.

Your ignorance of mathematics (that it is all quantitative) shows quite clearly who the dullard is.

I meant what I said.

Here's an example real life question. You work for a bank. A condition of keeping your banking licence is that you take reasonable steps to prevent your bank being used to commit financial crime.

Show me how a mathematician will a/ ask the right questions as to how you demonstrate this b/ get what you (jokingly I assume?) call the (not a, the) "right answer" to these questions c/ show the supervising regulator they've delivered the one and only "right answer" to the questions and d/ convince a Southwark jury they've done so when later charged by the FCA / PRA / police with negligently abetting money-laundering.

Your maths degree is no more use in this real world example than any other. A lot less if you are dumb enough to imagine there's one "right answer".

Wakey wakey. There are reasons only mathematicians think mathematicians are really smart. One such is thinking there's a right answer.

Goldfish can't see water. Same thing.