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  • FIRST POST
    • Jlbourne
    • By Jlbourne 14th Jun 19, 11:36 AM
    • 13Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Jlbourne
    parking Eye defence now complete - please check
    • #1
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:36 AM
    parking Eye defence now complete - please check 14th Jun 19 at 11:36 AM
    I HAVE POSTED MY COMPLETED DEFENCE AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS THREAD, PLEASE CAN YOU REVIEW BEFORE I PRINT TODAY




    Apologies for starting a new thread, I am literally drowning in all this info and canít make any sense of anything anymore.

    To summarise
    1. I parked in a pub car park for 24 minutes
    2. I was he heavily pregnant at the time and suffering from various medical issues
    3. I had to pull over as i fell unwell whilst driving, this pub carpark was the safest place to pull over
    4. I didnít respond to the inital letters as we were behind with admin because of new baby.
    5. I did explain the situation to parking eye they responded by saying it would go to small claims
    6. I agreed to mediation when i tried to make the appointment they said no appointments available so it will go to court


    I really am stuck and its making me feel ill with stress.

    Do I have a leg to stand on or am I going to be hit with 100ís of pounds in fines and court costs?

    I received the reply to defence today from parking eye they said I canít provide any further evidence or statements without paying for costa, is this correct?

    The correspondence does not refer to or include my appeal, does that mean they dont have it?

    Im sorry for how basic i am with all of this

    Any help will be greatly appreciated
    Last edited by Jlbourne; 29-07-2019 at 2:08 PM. Reason: Defence included
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Jun 19, 11:47 AM
    • 15,203 Posts
    • 15,862 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:47 AM
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:47 AM
    IMO, the best defence against a PE ticket is their signage, read this

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5972164

    I really am stuck and its making me feel ill with stress.


    It really is not a big deal. Nine out of ten private tickets are scams and likely to fail in court. Enlist the support of your MP as they are obviously trying to frighten/scam you.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

    Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Jlbourne
    • By Jlbourne 14th Jun 19, 11:55 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Jlbourne
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:55 AM
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:55 AM
    Thanks will have a read

    They have shown pictures and have given dimensions of all the signs in their defence although in all honesty whether they were noticeable or not it wouldn't have made a difference to me, i was unwell and it was either stop on a main road or pull in to this carpark

    Will complaining to the MP make a difference st my stage?

    Do you know if I will be left with huge costs which I will be unable to pay ad I am on maternity leave
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Jun 19, 12:39 PM
    • 40,604 Posts
    • 90,171 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:39 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:39 PM
    If you lost you would have to pay about £175-£200.

    Have you contacted the pub/brewery manager and thrown yourself upon their mercy, asking if they would cancel the charge under the circumstances? They may be sympathetic to your case.

    You need your own pics of the site and signs and then compare them to the ones in the Bevis case.

    You should also request a copy of the landowner contract which they will have to provide at the disclosure stage.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 14th Jun 19, 12:41 PM
    • 5,679 Posts
    • 7,253 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:41 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:41 PM
    No intent to enter a parking contract so no possible meeting of minds. Even contracts by performance can be denied I believe

    OP - this isnt their "defence", this is their claim. They claim, you defend. Stops you mixing terms up.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 19, 12:31 AM
    • 76,496 Posts
    • 89,853 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 15th Jun 19, 12:31 AM
    • #6
    • 15th Jun 19, 12:31 AM
    I received the reply to defence today from parking eye they said I can’t provide any further evidence or statements without paying for costa, is this correct?
    Costs? What do you mean? No that's not correct but please quote the letter verbatim.

    The correspondence does not refer to or include my appeal, does that mean they dont have it?
    No. They don't even have to do a reply to defence so they can include whatever they like if they decided to do one to intimidate you.

    Don't let the scammers get to you, and follow the process through as the NEWBIES thread tells you, and prepare for WS & evidence stage properly.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Jlbourne
    • By Jlbourne 29th Jul 19, 1:01 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Jlbourne
    • #7
    • 29th Jul 19, 1:01 PM
    • #7
    • 29th Jul 19, 1:01 PM
    My hearing date is 14th August so need to get this off ASAP


    Is the below OK? I really feel out of my depth with this. Any help/comments will be gratefully received. Thanks





    ____________
    DEFENCE
    ____________



    1. The Defendant was the registered keeper and driver of vehicle registration number on the material date. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.



    2. Accordingly, it is denied that the Defendant breached any of the Claimant's purported contractual terms, whether express, implied, or by conduct. The defendant never used the land to park and in fact never left the car, the Defendant was simply pulling over in the safest place along a busy main road, and the circumstances are set out below.

    3. The facts of the matter are that the Defendant was approximately 30 weeks pregnant at the time and just minutes from leaving home, become unwell whilst driving, with two young children in the car. This car park was the safest place for the Defendant to stop and seek help. Although at the time the Defendants initial priority was to find a safe place to stop, it was not clear that the carpark had recently been taken over by ParkingEye and that the Defendant was required to enter registration details. Had this been clear the Defendant would have done exactly this as there is no charge for using this car park.



    4. The circumstances which led to the Defendant using the car park were out of the Defendants control and after explaining this to Parking Eye in an appeal on 01/03/19 the Defendant was hoping that the Claimant would have had some understanding and cancelled the excessive charge under mitigating circumstances. Instead the Claimant’s only response to the appeal was a defence which included lots of legal terms and did not refer to any of the specifics about the Defendant being unwell proving that the Claimant had no interest in resolving the issue or understanding the unfortunate circumstances that led to this situation.


    5. The Defendant would like to note their willingness to mediate this claim through small claims mediation. This would made almost impossible, the Defandant called the number on the information to book a phone call in however was told there was no available slots even though a deadline had not been issued.

    5. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient interest in the land or that there are specific terms in its contract to bring an action on its own behalf. As a third party agent, the Claimant may not pursue any charge, unless specifically authorised by the principal. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant does not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name, and that they have no right to bring any action regarding this claim.



    6. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.


    7. In addition to the points above the Defendant has since been to visit the site and believes the terms on the Claimant's signage are also displayed in a font which is too small to be read from a passing vehicle, and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read the tiny font would be unable to do so easily. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.


    8. According to the sparse signs in this car park, it now transpires that to avoid a Parking Charge and despite there being no Pay & Display machines or similar, visitors were expected to know to input their Vehicle Registration Number (VRN). This was far from clearly signed and the purported keypad was nowhere to be seen.


    9.1. Prior to the Defendant's visit, ParkingEye had recently placed their signage within the car park creating new terms and conditions for motorists. Their Trade Body Code of Practice states at 18.11: ''Where there is any change in the terms and conditions that materially affects the motorist then you should make these clear on your signage. Where such changes impose liability where none previously existed then you should consider a grace period to allow regular visitors to the site to adjust and familiarise themselves with the changes.''


    9.2. It is contended that the Claimant failed to alert regular local visitors to an onerous change and unexpected obligation to use an iPad, or risk £100 penalty. The Claimant is put to strict proof, with the bar being set by Denning LJ in J Spurling Ltd v Bradshaw [1956] in the well-known 'Red Hand Rule' where hidden/unknown terms were held to be unenforceable: ''Some clauses which I have seen would need to be printed in red ink...with a red hand pointing to it before the notice could be held to be sufficient.''


    10.1Upon receiving the claim, the Defendant researched this all too common issue and was advised to complain to the landowner. Unsurprisingly, this was conspicuous by its absence as an option offered by ParkingEye in their signs or paperwork, prior to commencing proceedings.


    10.2 This fact was later confirmed in all readings of the Private Parking Code of Practice Bill, from February 2018 to date, where MPs universally condemned the entire industry as operating 'an outrageous scam' typically relying upon hidden, punitive terms that purposely rely on drivers not seeing an unexpected obligation. Both the British Parking Association ('BPA') Trade Body and indeed, ParkingEye themselves were specifically named and shamed more than once in Parliament and the Bill was introduced purely because the industry is out of control, self regulation has failed, and in many cases any 'appeal' is futile.



    11. This case is fully distinguished in all respects from ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67. That Supreme Court decision sets a high bar for parking firms, not a blanket precedent, and the Beavis case essentially turned on a 'complex' and compelling legitimate interest and very clear notices, where the terms were held not to involve any lack of good faith or 'concealed pitfall or trap'. Completely unlike the instant case.



    12. In addition, there can be no cause of action in a parking charge case without a 'relevant obligation' and/or 'relevant contract' (the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 refers). Expecting a driver to somehow realise they need to input their VRN into an unseen keypad, in what the consumer is confident is an unrestricted free car park for patrons with no visible machines of any description, is indisputably a 'concealed pitfall' and cannot be described as a 'relevant obligation'.




    13. If a parking firm was truly acting in good faith and keeping the interests of consumers at the heart of their thinking, they would concentrate on ensuring firstly, that patrons could not miss the keypad(s) and secondly, could not miss the fact that, if they did receive an unfair PCN, they had a right to ask the landowner/Managers to cancel it. Clearly the Claimants interest is purely in misleading members of the public and extracting as much money as possible in three figure penalties, given that this is the only way ParkingEye make any money.

    14.1 The Claimant's negligent or deliberately unfair business practice initially caused the unfair PCN to arise, then the Claimant's silence regarding the simple option of landowner cancellation rights, directly caused these unwarranted proceedings. This Claimant cannot be heard to blame consumers for not trying a futile 'appeal' to them, whilst themselves hoping the Defendant does not discover that ParkingEye withheld the option of landowner cancellation all along.

    14.2. By failing to adequately alert patrons to the keypad, and then withholding from the registered keeper any/all information about the 'user agreement' with the landowner which would have enable an immediate route of cancellation, are 'misleading omissions' of material facts. These are specific breaches of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and transgress the tests of fairness and transparency of consumer contracts, as set out in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (this relatively untested legislation was enacted after the final hearing in Beavis and not actively considered in that case). As such, this claim must fail.



    15. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred £75 costs to pursue an alleged £100 debt. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, in Schedule 4, Para 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100.

    16. In summary, the Claimant's particulars disclose no legal basis for the sum claimed, and the Court is invited to dismiss the claim in its entirety.








    Statement of Truth:

    I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

    Name
    Signature
    Date
    Last edited by Jlbourne; 29-07-2019 at 7:16 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 29th Jul 19, 2:26 PM
    • 17,883 Posts
    • 21,788 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #8
    • 29th Jul 19, 2:26 PM
    • #8
    • 29th Jul 19, 2:26 PM
    If you have a hearing date already, then this means that you have already filed a Defence some time ago. Your opening post seems to say that you filed a Defence too.

    You should now be thinking about a Witness Statement.

    Please can we see the Defence that you have already filed.
    .
    • Jlbourne
    • By Jlbourne 29th Jul 19, 6:17 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Jlbourne
    • #9
    • 29th Jul 19, 6:17 PM
    • #9
    • 29th Jul 19, 6:17 PM
    Hi @Keithp
    Thank you for your reply, I have never filed a defence. We appealed directly with parking eye some time ago and that is the only correspondence we have had.


    I am now even more confused. Should I not be sending the above?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 29th Jul 19, 6:25 PM
    • 17,883 Posts
    • 21,788 Thanks
    KeithP
    The process is:
    1) you receive a County Court Claim Form.
    2) you file a Defence
    3) you get a Directions Questionnaire and get offered mediation
    4) case gets transferred to your local court and a hearing date is set
    5) you file a Witness Statement.

    Steps 2), 3) and 4) above will not take place unless the previous step is completed.

    I guess you received the Claim Form. What did you do with it?
    Did you write anything in the Defence and Counterclaim box when returning it?

    Did you get a Directions Questionnaire? This is where you get to choose your local court. and accepted the offer of mediation.
    Last edited by KeithP; 29-07-2019 at 6:28 PM.
    .
    • Jlbourne
    • By Jlbourne 29th Jul 19, 6:38 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Jlbourne
    Ok so seems i have totally messed up. I don’t remember doing a questionaire and certainly haven’t filed a defence
    Is it worth labelling this witness statement and sending it in?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 29th Jul 19, 6:55 PM
    • 17,883 Posts
    • 21,788 Thanks
    KeithP
    But surely you have a record of everything you have returned to the County Court Business Centre?

    Why have you not answered my question...
    I guess you received the Claim Form. What did you do with it?
    Did you write anything in the Defence and Counterclaim box when returning it?
    It is difficult to say whether your proposed Witness Statement is suitable without knowing what has been filed as a Defence.

    You say "...don't remember doing a Questionnaire" - that was the form where you chose your local court for a hearing and opted for mediation - ring any bells?

    You say "...certainly haven’t filed a defence".
    HM Courts and Tribunals Service thinks otherwise.
    .
    • Jlbourne
    • By Jlbourne 29th Jul 19, 7:00 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Jlbourne
    No record
    This has all hapoened at the same time as me having a baby. I havent been the most organised

    I dont recall receiving a claim form. This whole thing has been overwhelming i have clearly made a lot of mistakes
    Is there any saving it now?

    Is there anyway to see what hm courts have as my defence?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 29th Jul 19, 7:00 PM
    • 25,008 Posts
    • 31,939 Thanks
    Redx
    your defence was filed before 14th june to the MCOL CCBC in Northampton, who then sent you a DQ asking to be filled in and naming your local court in your reply

    seems you are at the witness statement stage, not defence stage, that ship sailed months ago

    maybe they will email it to you if you ring them (a bit like a SAR), plus ask when the DQ was sent out and when they received it back WITH YOUR LOCAL COURT DETAILS ON IT ?

    email PE enforcement and ask them for copies (include a copy of your V5C log book as proof of ID), again like a SAR for all their docs etc, email their DPO a SAR too, tonight , for all docs and pics and data, including a copy of your defence in their reply to your SAR, again include a copy of the V5C as proof of ID
    Last edited by Redx; 29-07-2019 at 7:04 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Jlbourne
    • By Jlbourne 29th Jul 19, 7:03 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Jlbourne
    This is something that was submitted online. I thought this was an appeal? Maybe this was the defence

    I have been an NHS worker at xxfor the last
    10 years and have always worked hard for the community I serve
    locally which includes Xxx. I moved to Xxx in February
    2017, when the Xx car park, now managed by Parkingeye
    Ltd was a open air car wash which I used to use often and park in
    regularly with no issues at all to go and do my shopping on the
    high street. I had no idea it had been taken over only relatively
    recently by Parkingeye Ltd, or I would never have gone in
    there. The signage that this was owned by this company which is
    known to issue unfair and disproportionately high fines, was not
    obvious to me for reasons I will explain below. The car park is
    adjacent to the Railway Tavern Pub on the corner of the high
    street and I thought it had merely been taken over by the pub once
    more. I was not to know that Parkingeye Ltd had taken over
    management.

    I was 30 weeks pregnant at the time and in the car with my 1
    year-old girl and my 5 year-old boy when I came over very unwell
    and nauseous and vomited everywhere in the car. I know the area
    very well and live only around half a mile away from where this
    happened and am aware that the whole of the main road has double
    yellow lines with fast-flowing traffic. I pulled over into the
    Railway Tavern car park to be safe and move out of the way of the
    traffic for mine and my children's safety as well as oncoming
    traffic to avoid an accident. I did not see any signage to inform
    me that this was a private car park. Certainly it was not obvious
    to me at the immediate time and in the unwell and flustered state I
    was in at the time and I did not see any signs. My young children
    were extremely distressed by my violent vomiting which came on
    quite suddenly and I needed time to console them, to clean up the
    car and to call my partner. I composed myself and left the car
    park finally. I have suffered with polyhydramnios in this
    pregnancy and have required regular monitoring by the
    Obstetricians and Foetal Medicine Consultants at Xx
    Hospital needing regular blood tests and scans with more intensive
    monitoring and have been unwell because of this.

    My baby son is now less than two weeks old and this claim has come
    out of the blue. I have not received and letters up until now in
    the prelude to this, therefore this is a shock. We are very
    stressed at this difficult time which should be cherished and
    special but this situation is causing a great deal of stress in an
    unfair and unreasonable way. I hope that you can take into account
    these mitigating circumstances and please understand that the
    situation could not be helped and was an emergency. I am very
    sorry but a fine of £175 is excessive and completely unfair
    especially as it is out of the blue. Thank you for considering
    this statement of mine and I hope that a fair conclusion can be
    reached.
    Last edited by Jlbourne; 29-07-2019 at 7:29 PM.
    • Jlbourne
    • By Jlbourne 29th Jul 19, 7:05 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Jlbourne
    I have Parking eyes documents all included in their witness statement
    • Redx
    • By Redx 29th Jul 19, 7:06 PM
    • 25,008 Posts
    • 31,939 Thanks
    Redx
    seems to me that the above is your defence filed with the CCBC in Northampton

    reading it , its a witness statement, not a defence

    you are now at the WS + Exhibits stage if you have a letter from your local county court ? with a deadline day, a few weeks prior to the hearing date


    in the bundle from PE, did it include your defence that you filed with the CCBC back before june ?


    edit


    REMOVE YOUR PERSONAL DETAILS LIKE VRM vehicle details from your proposed defence above in post #7
    Last edited by Redx; 29-07-2019 at 7:09 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Jlbourne
    • By Jlbourne 29th Jul 19, 7:10 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Jlbourne
    Yes this is where i have got confused
    Yes i have a letter saying all documents need to be sent 14 days before hearing

    The bundle from PE did not include my defence
    This statement i submitted 1st march

    Where should i go from here?

    Should i rename the above my WS and submit it?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 29th Jul 19, 7:13 PM
    • 25,008 Posts
    • 31,939 Thanks
    Redx

    [/FONT]

    1. The Defendant was the registered keeper and driver of vehicle registration number XXXXXXX on the material date. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.



    15. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred £75 costs to pursue an alleged £100 debt. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, in Schedule 4, Para 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100.
    by Jlbourne;76091101[FONT=Times New Roman

    I edited out your VRM, you must do so too


    they are allowed the £100 for the parking charge default tariff plus the legal costs of £75 = £175 in total

    ie:- they can claim the £100 default on the signage plus their legal costs , so they havent added anything else on other than what is allowed


    that DEFENCE cannot just be relabelled as WS


    it needs pruning and adapting
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Jlbourne
    • By Jlbourne 29th Jul 19, 7:19 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Jlbourne
    Thanks
    Didnít think of that, i have taken it out
    How would you suggest i adapt it?
    I will remove that paragraph as i have clearly misunderstood That too. What a mess i have created
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