Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Just Focus
    • By Just Focus 15th Apr 19, 10:51 AM
    • 16Posts
    • 5Thanks
    Just Focus
    No fault accident claim queries ...
    • #1
    • 15th Apr 19, 10:51 AM
    No fault accident claim queries ... 15th Apr 19 at 10:51 AM
    Hi All,


    Looking for some advice please in relation to a no-fault accident my vehicle was involved in on Saturday as my insurance company are being very unhelpful. At 3.30PM on Saturday I returned to my parked car to find a vehicle ploughed in to the back of mine and another vehicle on it's roof next to it (odd I know). Basically it looks like the vehicle that hit mine was a learner and the flipped vehicle tried to overtake it through a width restrictor, collided with it, then the side of the road flipping over, and pushing the learner in to the back of my car. Damage is substantial - my entire rear wing is crushed, bumper destroyed, lights smashed and it also pushed the left side of my car in to a log next to the road so damaged the length of the sill. Police and ambulances attended and confirmed that both parties were insured and they said it was clearly the flipped car's fault for a dangerous overtake. So, I phoned my insurer (Admiral) and they confirmed it would be a non-fault claim, taped my car up as best I could and limped home, parking it up. This was nearly 48 hours ago and I have phoned my insurer multiple times to find out why they haven't helped book my vehicle in and provided a hire car for me. They keep saying that because they haven't been able to contact the flipped car driver they can't help with anything, including booking my car in. I asked them what happens if they can't contact the driver and they said tough I would have to wait.


    Now given that I am obviously not at fault I don't really see why I should be losing out here. I'm meant to be going away on Wednesday for Easter and I now have no vehicle. It's an Audi so presumably it would be OK for me to just sort this all out myself? I.e. book it in at Audi, get them to collect it and provide a courtesy car then charge it to whoever the insurers decide the at fault party is? The added confusion is that the flipped car is also insured with Admiral, and I have a feeling that is why they are being so rubbish to me i.e. they know that any costs I incur will also fall to them. I have friends who've been involved in non-fault claims and they've had their car collected and been in a like-for-like hire car within the same day...


    I hear about credit hire companies but haven't been contacted by anyone about that possibility. Admiral did say the first time I reported the claim that I could deal with it through their claim management company but they said it would be easier and quicker if I dealt directly with them because the at fault party is also insured with them. I'm guessing that if I'd gone through the claim management company they would have had me in a hire car potentially?


    Any advice much appreciated.
Page 3
    • caprikid1
    • By caprikid1 16th Apr 19, 3:26 PM
    • 746 Posts
    • 727 Thanks
    caprikid1
    Ms Duck, in the words of the great Alan P, "I'm not driving a Mini Metro".


    Judging by the tone of your reply and the in-depth knowledge of the way the insurance industry works you either work in it or spend too much time on here.


    I would rather walk than drive a Corsa. I have no car snobbery , the car I choose to drive on a daily basis is a 2003 VW golf.


    I also chose to drive other cars which due to a very poor insurance company I am being deprived off. Not sure why I should be paying for a car I cannot use .


    What you clearly don't understand is the difference between transport and hobbies. I appreciate in this world of PCPs and rental agreements that cars for many are either status symbols or white goods. For some of us there is heritage and enjoyment attached to the cars we chose to own and drive.
    • alfie1950
    • By alfie1950 16th Apr 19, 3:35 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    alfie1950
    OP...be prepared for what you will be buying next ...normally as soon as you receive the settlement cheque you have to hand the hire car back.
    They don't usually give extra time to find something!
    • Simonr66
    • By Simonr66 16th Apr 19, 3:38 PM
    • 161 Posts
    • 94 Thanks
    Simonr66


    You're right. Unless the commenters above are correct that I should have been claiming off the learner rather than the car roller.


    Car A - Mine. Insured by Admiral.
    Car B - Learner vehicle. Collided with mine. Insured by A.N. Other insurer.
    Car C - Rolled over vehicle. At fault according to police. Insured by Admiral.
    Originally posted by Just Focus
    You need to claim off of Car B, learner, insurance who will in turn claim from Car C, vehicle at fault
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 16th Apr 19, 4:22 PM
    • 21,785 Posts
    • 20,497 Thanks
    AdrianC
    I would rather walk than drive a Corsa. I have no car snobbery
    Originally posted by caprikid1
    the car I choose to drive on a daily basis is a 2003 VW golf.
    ...
    For some of us there is heritage and enjoyment attached to the cars we chose to own and drive.
    Do excuse me a second...
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 16th Apr 19, 5:14 PM
    • 3,437 Posts
    • 4,638 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    Ms Duck, in the words of the great Alan P, "I'm not driving a Mini Metro".


    Judging by the tone of your reply and the in-depth knowledge of the way the insurance industry works you either work in it or spend too much time on here.


    I would rather walk than drive a Corsa. I have no car snobbery , the car I choose to drive on a daily basis is a 2003 VW golf.


    I also chose to drive other cars which due to a very poor insurance company I am being deprived off. Not sure why I should be paying for a car I cannot use .


    What you clearly don't understand is the difference between transport and hobbies. I appreciate in this world of PCPs and rental agreements that cars for many are either status symbols or white goods. For some of us there is heritage and enjoyment attached to the cars we chose to own and drive.
    Originally posted by caprikid1
    "Try saying it again, I'll just talk over you."

    In-depth knowledge? No, just a little more knowledge than you appear to have, which certainly doesn't qualify as in-depth. Maybe I've just read the terms and conditions of the very expensive annual product I buy. It's called due diligence. Try it, you may learn something.
    Last edited by Aylesbury Duck; 16-04-2019 at 5:17 PM.
    • caprikid1
    • By caprikid1 16th Apr 19, 6:28 PM
    • 746 Posts
    • 727 Thanks
    caprikid1
    I think you are misunderstanding the situation, there is no need to read my policy as my policy has no bearing on the situation what so ever. I would suggest that the third party has to settle my losses in line with previous case law around what's considered acceptable not even their policy terms as I am not party to them, or in this case the lowest possible amount they can bully claimants into paying out.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 16th Apr 19, 6:30 PM
    • 21,785 Posts
    • 20,497 Thanks
    AdrianC
    I think you are misunderstanding the situation, there is no need to read my policy as my policy has no bearing on the situation what so ever.
    Originally posted by caprikid1
    It does if you're claiming off your policy.


    I would suggest that the third party has to settle my losses in line with previous case law around what's considered acceptable not even their policy terms as I am not party to them, or in this case the lowest possible amount they can bully claimants into paying out.
    Yes, it does. Mitigating losses and costs is a core responsibility for any claimant in any situation.
    • caprikid1
    • By caprikid1 16th Apr 19, 6:42 PM
    • 746 Posts
    • 727 Thanks
    caprikid1
    It does if you're claiming off your policy.



    Yes, it does. Mitigating losses and costs is a core responsibility for any claimant in any situation.
    Originally posted by AdrianC


    I am not claiming against my policy , I think not have a replacement car for over a month would be considered mitigating the losses.
    • caprikid1
    • By caprikid1 16th Apr 19, 6:46 PM
    • 746 Posts
    • 727 Thanks
    caprikid1
    I actually made the mistake of trying to keep costs as low as possible by just dealing with the third parties insurer.
    • Just Focus
    • By Just Focus 17th Apr 19, 8:12 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Just Focus
    Can anyone advise me on what to do when the third party insurer inevitably undervalues my car via the trade guides? My car is a 2011 Audi A4 Avant 2 litre TFSI manual with top spec (full leather, sun-roof, heated seats etc.). I looked for months for the exact vehicle as I wanted a petrol to avoid the T Charge that has now been implemented in central London. As a result, petrol vehicles were (and probably still are) costing a lot more inside the M25. The car had also just had a c.5K engine rebuild (oil-burn issue affecting TFSI engines from that period) under a recall and so the engine was sweet for another 100,000 miles at least. I also paid an additional 500 for a 1 year no quibble warranty and only bought the vehicle 5 months ago. Any advice is appreciated, but it looks likely that I'll lose about 3K due to an accident that wasn't my fault at all. There is no way I can replace with anything like my vehicle for that money if you look on Autotrader.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 17th Apr 19, 8:18 AM
    • 38,619 Posts
    • 22,562 Thanks
    Quentin
    Collect evidence of what a similar model/age/mileage would cost

    Though bear in mind asking prices are not market value!
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 17th Apr 19, 8:32 AM
    • 3,437 Posts
    • 4,638 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    Gather as much evidence as you can of its value. Things like the warranty and engine re-build don’t count, because the first was an optional insurance and the second maintained the value of the vehicle. There’s nothing stopping you from buying the replacement from outside London, so that bit isn’t relevant.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 17th Apr 19, 8:33 AM
    • 21,785 Posts
    • 20,497 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Can anyone advise me on what to do when the third party insurer inevitably undervalues my car via the trade guides?
    Originally posted by Just Focus
    You escalate to the financial ombudsman, ultimately.
    https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/motor-valuation.html

    My car is a 2011 Audi A4 Avant 2 litre TFSI manual with top spec (full leather, sun-roof, heated seats etc.). I looked for months for the exact vehicle as I wanted a petrol to avoid the T Charge that has now been implemented in central London.
    Any and every Euro4 petrol car, which means post-2004 or so, is ULEZ exempt. The "T-Charge" was introduced in October 2017, and has been replaced by the ULEZ - currently, only covering the congestion charge zone. It's another two and a half years until it covers out to the circulars. The average duration of car ownership in the UK is estimated at various periods, with some sources suggesting as low as 20 months - so the chances are you'd have sold this car anyway before the ULEZ becomes anything more than a very localised (and easily avoided) issue.

    As a result, petrol vehicles were (and probably still are) costing a lot more inside the M25.
    So buy one from outside the M25 instead. The nice thing about cars is that they're portable...

    The car had also just had a c.5K engine rebuild
    That doesn't add 5k to the value. It may well add nothing to the value.

    I also paid an additional 500 for a 1 year no quibble warranty and only bought the vehicle 5 months ago.
    I presume this engine rebuild was before you bought it, then? Because, otherwise, you'd expect the warranty to have covered the 5k bill, so the bill is irrelevant... Right?

    But you would get the trade replacement value, so any car you bought would likely include a similar duration warranty - you had 7 months remaining. Anything longer would be betterment.

    There is no way I can replace with anything like my vehicle for that money if you look on Autotrader.
    Since you don't say how much they've offered you...

    There's not many identical cars on the market currently - simply because Audi wouldn't have sold many new. There's only 8 2011 petrol A4 Avants on Autotrader, ranging between 7.8k and 14k. Most are in the 10.7k-12.5k range. So, without any more clues as to the condition/mileage/etc of yours, I'd suggest somewhere around 10-11k as a reasonable starting point. Remember, the insurance are under no obligation to provide an exact replacement, just the fair market value of the car immediately prior to the incident.
    Last edited by AdrianC; 17-04-2019 at 8:42 AM.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 17th Apr 19, 9:01 AM
    • 38,619 Posts
    • 22,562 Thanks
    Quentin
    You escalate to the financial ombudsman, ultimately.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    No

    Whoever told you this has misled you

    The OP cannot get any FOS involvement. The FOS won't intercede when the complainant has no policy with the insurer! Giving up FOS protection is a downside of not claiming off your own comprehensive policy.

    The "ultimate" action would have to be court.
    Last edited by Quentin; 17-04-2019 at 9:28 AM.
    • Just Focus
    • By Just Focus 17th Apr 19, 9:10 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Just Focus
    You escalate to the financial ombudsman, ultimately.


    Any and every Euro4 petrol car, which means post-2004 or so, is ULEZ exempt. The "T-Charge" was introduced in October 2017, and has been replaced by the ULEZ - currently, only covering the congestion charge zone. It's another two and a half years until it covers out to the circulars. The average duration of car ownership in the UK is estimated at various periods, with some sources suggesting as low as 20 months - so the chances are you'd have sold this car anyway before the ULEZ becomes anything more than a very localised (and easily avoided) issue.

    So buy one from outside the M25 instead. The nice thing about cars is that they're portable...

    That doesn't add 5k to the value. It may well add nothing to the value.

    I presume this engine rebuild was before you bought it, then? Because, otherwise, you'd expect the warranty to have covered the 5k bill, so the bill is irrelevant... Right?

    But you would get the trade replacement value, so any car you bought would likely include a similar duration warranty - you had 7 months remaining. Anything longer would be betterment.

    Since you don't say how much they've offered you...

    There's not many identical cars on the market currently - simply because Audi wouldn't have sold many new. There's only 8 2011 petrol A4 Avants on Autotrader, ranging between 7.8k and 14k. Most are in the 10.7k-12.5k range. So, without any more clues as to the condition/mileage/etc of yours, I'd suggest somewhere around 10-11k as a reasonable starting point. Remember, the insurance are under no obligation to provide an exact replacement, just the fair market value of the car immediately prior to the incident.
    Originally posted by AdrianC

    In relation to your points:


    1) My understanding is that you can only escalate these situations to Financial Ombudsman where you are claiming off your own insurer. I have been told that you cannot escalate when you are dealing with a third party's insurer. Perhaps you could confirm whether I've been misadvised on this point.


    2) You've potentially misunderstood the point I was making about the charge (probably because I accidentally said T Charge when I meant ULEZ!). My point is that at the time I bought my car 5 months ago: (a) I was looking for a Euro 4 petrol estate Audi because I drive through central London regularly (outside congestion charge times but during the new 24 hour ULEZ that has just started) i.e. I was future proofing myself for ULEZ and therefore will want to replace my vehicle with a petrol and these are rare and (b) vehicles of that type were costing more than usual in London and surrounding area because a lot of people were doing the same as me i.e. looking for Euro 4 petrol cars. As you know, petrol Audi estates are rare as most are diesel.


    3) Surely the value that I am given should be based on the cost of that type of vehicle in my local area. I live in Central London so why should I be expected to go miles outside the M25 to get a replacement? Also, where does this stop i.e. cars in Scotland are generally much cheaper, am I expected to go 400 miles to get a vehicle? Also, I only have one car, and a poster above said that once I get my settlement offer I will immediately lose my hire vehicle so how am I meant to go miles outside the M25 to look at replacements?


    4) My point here is that these vehicles (2 litre TFSI Audis from that period) are known for an issue that eventually results in engine failure. All websites say that you shouldn't touch one unless it has had this recall work carried out. That's the reason I bought the one I did - the dealer had the Audi invoice from a couple of months previous showing this work had been carried out. Trying to find another one which has had this work done will be another further difficulty, and those vehicles are likely to be priced accordingly.


    5) You're correct that the warranty was after the engine rebuild (this was done before I bought the car). Every trader I've ever bought a car off offers a 3 month warranty, not 6 or 7 months. Also, I thought the price guides they use are for auction values, in which case they include no warranty? I'm asking why I should lose 7 months worth of warranty I paid for as a result of an accident that wasn't my fault?


    6) I haven't yet been offered anything but a friend looked up my car in some guides yesterday and estimates I will be offered 9K maximum, not the 10-11K that you have said is a 'fair starting point'. Obviously I hope they offer 11 or more but I don't think they will and am trying to prepare for that eventuality in advance.
    • Just Focus
    • By Just Focus 17th Apr 19, 10:12 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Just Focus
    As an FYI for anyone following this thread, I just spoke to AX (the CMC) and they said that they would be going directly to the Micra driver's insurer as they were at fault. Not sure where all the views come from on this thread that they have to go to the vehicle that collided with mine rather than the at fault party but just wanted to confirm that this is not the case.
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 17th Apr 19, 11:26 AM
    • 3,437 Posts
    • 4,638 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    As an FYI for anyone following this thread, I just spoke to AX (the CMC) and they said that they would be going directly to the Micra driver's insurer as they were at fault. Not sure where all the views come from on this thread that they have to go to the vehicle that collided with mine rather than the at fault party but just wanted to confirm that this is not the case.
    Originally posted by Just Focus
    I expect those views are based on the premise that you weren't directly involved in an accident with the Micra. It had its own accident with the learner vehicle which then hit yours. The Micra may be the root cause of the crash but your car has no direct "relationship" with it.
    • Just Focus
    • By Just Focus 17th Apr 19, 1:08 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Just Focus
    I expect those views are based on the premise that you weren't directly involved in an accident with the Micra. It had its own accident with the learner vehicle which then hit yours. The Micra may be the root cause of the crash but your car has no direct "relationship" with it.
    Originally posted by Aylesbury Duck

    That may well be what those views are based on but I'm just feeding back that according to my CMC those views were wrong in this instance. Even though I was never directly involved in the accident with the Micra and therefore have no direct relationship with it my CMC will be claiming directly from the Micra's insurer. They said that if they were to go to the Learner's insurer they would refuse to deal on the basis that the Micra was at fault.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,405Posts Today

4,307Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Have a great Easter, or a chag sameach to those like me attending Passover seder tomorrow. I?m taking all of next? https://t.co/qrAFTIpqWl

  • RT @rowlyc1980: A whopping 18 days off work for only 9 days leave! I?ll have a bit of that please......thanks @MartinSLewis for your crafty?

  • RT @dinokyp: That feeling when you realise that you have 18 days of work and only used 9 days of your annual leave! Thanks @MartinSLewis h?

  • Follow Martin