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  • FIRST POST
    • squire1234
    • By squire1234 6th Aug 18, 4:33 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 0Thanks
    squire1234
    Private PCN on residential estate
    • #1
    • 6th Aug 18, 4:33 PM
    Private PCN on residential estate 6th Aug 18 at 4:33 PM
    Hi all,

    I live in a large estate where each resident has their own parking space. There are also 4 visitor spots but these are almost always taken by residents with second vehicles. There are undesignated areas within the estate, alongside curbs, which residents regularly use for additional parking and these do not cause any obstruction to traffic, but are obviously against the T&Cs of parking in the estate. Unfortunately, there is no way to pay for additional parking permits anywhere in my area so residents, including myself, continue to do so out of necessity.

    Whenever I have a visitor, I will allow them to park in my bay (with my permit) and I will move my car to one of the undesignated areas. Unfortunately, I have received 3 parking tickets over the past 12 months as a result. I have followed the advice on this forum and waited for the NTK in each case and then appealed to the PPC, not admitting liability. The photographic evidence that the PPC have does not clearly confirm whether I was even parked in an undesignated area in any of the cases. Obviously, the appeals were all rejected.

    I have now received a LBC from Gladstones and was hoping for some reassurance that I am doing the right thing by not paying and guidance on what to do next. I am currently making my way through the newbies thread. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    P.S. I cannot attach an image of the letter and the signage in the estate as a new user but I can PM if it helps.
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Aug 18, 4:52 PM
    • 20,696 Posts
    • 32,604 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 6th Aug 18, 4:52 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Aug 18, 4:52 PM
    I have now received a LBC from Gladstones and was hoping for some reassurance that I am doing the right thing by not paying and guidance on what to do next. I am currently making my way through the newbies thread. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
    The NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2 covers the court processes, from LBC through to the hearing.

    P.S. I cannot attach an image of the letter and the signage in the estate as a new user but I can PM if it helps.
    No need for PMs - do this:
    To upload a photo/scan link, you first need to host it on a free photo hosting site (like Dropbox, Imurg or Tinypic), copy the URL, paste it here, but change the http to hxxp and we'll do the conversion. Newbies can't directly upload links to photos/scans until they've got a few posts under their belt.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 6th Aug 18, 5:07 PM
    • 11,020 Posts
    • 10,986 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 6th Aug 18, 5:07 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Aug 18, 5:07 PM
    Read this

    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    If you park where the landowner or his agent say you should not park then you may be breaking the terms of your lease/AST and cannot use primacy of contract as a defence.

    However, Gladstones are low bottom end solicitors with scammers as clients, and usually muck up the paperwork in court, google "You've been Gladstoned" to see
    what I mean,hat I mean. Also, complain to your MP.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    Last edited by The Deep; 06-08-2018 at 5:09 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 6th Aug 18, 5:08 PM
    • 4,397 Posts
    • 6,242 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #4
    • 6th Aug 18, 5:08 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Aug 18, 5:08 PM
    Forget the Ts&Cs on the parking sign and the permits, the critical part is what does the lease/rental/etc say about parking?
    what gives the parking company rights to operate on the land?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • squire1234
    • By squire1234 7th Aug 18, 5:15 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    squire1234
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 18, 5:15 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 18, 5:15 PM
    Thanks for the replies. I have included the gladstone letter and estate signage links below.

    hxxps://postimg.cc/image/4rl3fagh3/

    hxxps://google.com/search?q=linkparking+sign&client=safari&rls=en&sou rce=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjj4ryVqtvcAhUICc AKHdqHAR4Q_AUICigB&biw=1440&bih=816#imgrc=PL6Vlss1 nQv-FM:

    the critical part is what does the lease/rental/etc say about parking?
    So I have been reading through my AST contract and there is absolutely no mention of parking in it. The contract was through openrent. What does this mean?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 7th Aug 18, 5:24 PM
    • 11,374 Posts
    • 11,907 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 18, 5:24 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 18, 5:24 PM
    https://postimg.cc/image/4rl3fagh3/

    Yes, as you say, that's definitely a Letter Before Claim and you need to respond to it.

    Umkomaas has already referred you to post #2 of the NEWBIES thread where you will find sample robust responses.


    You google images link does not produce the result you were hoping for.
    .
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 7th Aug 18, 5:47 PM
    • 2,452 Posts
    • 3,462 Thanks
    NeilCr
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 5:47 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 5:47 PM
    There might be something in your landlord's lease about parking

    What, specifically, were you told by the landlord/Openrent about parking when you started the tenancy?

    How did you get the permit? How do you know the Ts and Cs of the parking "rules"?
    • squire1234
    • By squire1234 7th Aug 18, 11:56 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    squire1234
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 11:56 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 11:56 PM
    Umkomaas has already referred you to post #2 of the NEWBIES thread where you will find sample robust responses.
    Thank you, I have been making my way through this thread already actually! I presume it is not worth me paying the charge at this point? And are there additional court costs if I were to lose?

    What, specifically, were you told by the landlord/Openrent about parking when you started the tenancy?

    How did you get the permit? How do you know the Ts and Cs of the parking "rules"?
    To be honest, the landlord just handed me her permit when I moved in and told me which spot was mine. I have tripled checked my openrent AST agreement and there certainly isn't anything in it. As you say, there is probably further information in the landlord's lease agreement, which I do not have currently.

    The T&Cs are displayed around the carpark on various poles/lamp posts. I tried to link this earlier but posted the wrong link. This is the correct one:

    hxxp://legalbeagles.info/forums/filedata/fetch?id=1172741

    Thank you all so much for your help once again.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Aug 18, 12:11 AM
    • 11,374 Posts
    • 11,907 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #9
    • 8th Aug 18, 12:11 AM
    • #9
    • 8th Aug 18, 12:11 AM
    http://legalbeagles.info/forums/filedata/fetch?id=1172741

    The first thing that strikes me about that sign is how prominent the 100 charge is - or isn't.

    Compare your sign with the Beavis sign as can be seen on The Parking Prankster's site:
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/01/new-popla-staying-cases-to-consider.html

    Read the PP's blog - there is good info in there.
    .
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 8th Aug 18, 6:42 AM
    • 2,452 Posts
    • 3,462 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Others on here have far more knowledge than me about signs etc.

    Half Way has it. It would be helpful to know how Link came to be on the estate. Who appointed them, who are the parties to the contract and what authority was used. Are you friendly enough with the landlady to have a chat with her about the background to their introduction. She might have some paperwork. And sight of her lease would be good - or at least information on what is contained in it.

    ETA

    Think this is quite a common problem on modern estates. We have one visitor parking space for sixty nine properties. I know the builder and he wanted to put in more but the local council wouldn't let him. We have an access road where it is possible to park in certain areas. We are okay with that (residents own the freehold) but had to put up no parking signs on other parts because of selfish parking. It really is amazing how badly some folks can park!
    Last edited by NeilCr; 08-08-2018 at 7:25 AM.
    • squire1234
    • By squire1234 22nd Aug 18, 11:06 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    squire1234
    The first thing that strikes me about that sign is how prominent the 100 charge is - or isn't.
    Thank you for this, very helpful.

    Half Way has it. It would be helpful to know how Link came to be on the estate. Who appointed them, who are the parties to the contract and what authority was used. Are you friendly enough with the landlady to have a chat with her about the background to their introduction. She might have some paperwork. And sight of her lease would be good - or at least information on what is contained in it.
    I asked for the lease but, unfortunately, the landlady has not given me anything


    I am very new to this process, is the claim by Gladstones done electronically or do I need to appear in court to present my case?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 22nd Aug 18, 12:13 PM
    • 38,051 Posts
    • 85,390 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Thank you for this, very helpful.



    I asked for the lease but, unfortunately, the landlady has not given me anything


    I am very new to this process, is the claim by Gladstones done electronically or do I need to appear in court to present my case?
    Originally posted by squire1234
    This is explained in the court guide by bargepole I think.

    You want an oral hearing in court. You do not want this heard on papers.

    You really need a copy of the lease. Asking the landlord to ensure they will be free to attend court as a witness might persuade her to comply with your request for a copy of the lease.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • squire1234
    • By squire1234 22nd Aug 18, 1:42 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    squire1234
    This is explained in the court guide by bargepole I think.
    Just found the thread, makes a lot more sense now.

    You really need a copy of the lease. Asking the landlord to ensure they will be free to attend court as a witness might persuade her to comply with your request for a copy of the lease.
    Ok! Working on it.


    I need to reply to the LBC. Is there anything in particular I should state or is a slightly modified template response, as below, appropriate?
    • hxxps://padi.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/213845369-Letter-before-Claim-Further-and-Better-Particulars
    • hxxps://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72358831#post72358831
    • hxxps://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73208118#post73208118
    • squire1234
    • By squire1234 23rd Aug 18, 11:29 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    squire1234
    Hi! So I managed to acquire the lease agreement and there are only two relevant lines to parking:

    The right of the Tenant to park one private roadworthy and fully licensed motor vehicle of not more than three tonnes on or at the Parking Space together with the necessary rights of passage on foot…

    Not to park or allow to be parked any motor vehicle, wheeled vehicle, or other form of transport on any other part of the Development other than in accordance with…
    The lease was agreed in 2014 and there is no mention of LinkParking. My landlady informs me that it was another company operating initially but it changed to LinkParking last year without any consultation with the tenants.

    My question is, is there anything in particular I am looking for in the lease and is this something I should include in my response to the LBC? Thank you.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 23rd Aug 18, 12:12 PM
    • 4,158 Posts
    • 5,012 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Yes, you point out that the landlord has an unfettered right to park
    That right was demised to your during yoru tenancy
    There is no need for the landlord r ANYONE to take notice of a parking scheme in order to park in their demised property.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 23rd Aug 18, 2:10 PM
    • 38,051 Posts
    • 85,390 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Your lease has primacy of contract. You only need to comply with the Ts and Cs of the lease/AST, and a third party cannot take away or alter those rights.
    The lease does not mention a permit, and does not mention anything about you having to pay a third party unregulated scammer. They are trying to obtain money by lies, deception, and aggression.

    Please do get your MP involved in this. We see far too many "own space" parking issues.
    Point out what some judges have said about this scam.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/residential-parking.html
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 23-08-2018 at 5:48 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • squire1234
    • By squire1234 23rd Aug 18, 5:16 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    squire1234
    But the issue is that I was not parked in my own space at the time, I was parked on an access road as I had visitors who I had permitted to park in my space.

    Not to park or allow to be parked any motor vehicle, wheeled vehicle, or other form of transport on any other part of the Development...
    This line forbids me from parking anywhere other than my own space.
    • LawlessGoose
    • By LawlessGoose 23rd Aug 18, 5:39 PM
    • 53 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    LawlessGoose
    Assuming the sign creates a contract (e.g. it isn't forbidding) and assuming the driver is forthcoming, what I find interesting is that someone without a permit might decide that 100 is a reasonable price to pay for the convenience of using that particular parking space. Only, rather than receiving a charge for the 100 the NTK instead says the contract has been breached for not displaying a permit. Surely, such a contract would only be breached if the 28 period expired without the driver paying?

    This would mean that not only is the PPC applying rules to you that you must follow to use your own space they are also offering your space to the public for the price of 100 per day. Precisely the opposite of their intended purpose!
    Last edited by LawlessGoose; 23-08-2018 at 5:47 PM.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 23rd Aug 18, 5:52 PM
    • 38,051 Posts
    • 85,390 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    But the issue is that I was not parked in my own space at the time, I was parked on an access road as I had visitors who I had permitted to park in my space.



    This line forbids me from parking anywhere other than my own space.
    Originally posted by squire1234
    But is silent on having to pay a third party unregulated scammer if you do park on the access road.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 23-08-2018 at 6:53 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 23rd Aug 18, 6:02 PM
    • 2,452 Posts
    • 3,462 Thanks
    NeilCr
    But is silent on having to pay a third party unregulated scammer if you do park on the access toad.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Please, please, please show me a picture of the access toad!

    :

    Is there any catch all in the lease about the landlord/freeholder/whoever being able to introduce such measures as they see fit for the smooth running of the estate?
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