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  • FIRST POST
    • beauty_in_colour
    • By beauty_in_colour 8th Jul 18, 8:55 PM
    • 30Posts
    • 5Thanks
    beauty_in_colour
    Itís got to the court stage
    • #1
    • 8th Jul 18, 8:55 PM
    Itís got to the court stage 8th Jul 18 at 8:55 PM
    Hi All,
    I have spent a few days reading the various forums concerning private parking companies and tho I donít claim to have read it every single thread I think I am safe in starting a new thread. I have also read the newbies FAQ.

    Basically i have 2 situations concerning both my sons. I have slapped them on the wrist so we need to move to the next stage if possible.

    We live in a small estate that is managed. Due to issues caused by non-resident parking, the management company brought in a parking management company who issued one single parking permit per household. Each house and flat has an allocated parking spot and there are 14 additional ones where visitors can park so as not to park in the wrong place. Basically the parking companies issued so many PCNs to residents and following multiple complaints to the management company, the parking management company did not have their contract renewed so they no longer operate in the area. They were active for 13 months in the area.

    The problem is this - during the 13 months they were here, my boys were issued with several pcns which they ignored. (I appreciate they should not have done this but that is the situation). For one son, a claim is in the county court for just under £3k - and a hearing is imminent. The other son is facing a claim of just over 2k

    For the other son, a pre-court letter has arrived with an invitation to mediation or ADR.
    I have sent the statement of defence for son #1 which i can post a redacted copy if needed and for son #2 i waited TIL day 26 and sent a response claiming that the management company had given us to understand that they were protecting resident spaces from non-residents and importantly that the one parking permit issued had our address displayed and so was in breach of data protection, was unsafe and a security risk
    .
    Even the DVLA do not expect you to display your address on your vehicle.

    Beauty_in_colour
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Jul 18, 9:03 PM
    • 63,887 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 8th Jul 18, 9:03 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Jul 18, 9:03 PM
    For the other son, a pre-court letter has arrived with an invitation to mediation or ADR.
    As expected, DQ stage (N180 form) as per the NEWBIES thread post #2, shows your son how to answer each question (a guide written by bargepole - NO LINK HERE).

    I have sent the statement of defence for son #1 which i can post a redacted copy if needed
    Yes but I reckon start a separate thread about the separate case, or better still, get your son to post about that one and show us his defence.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • beauty_in_colour
    • By beauty_in_colour 8th Jul 18, 9:44 PM
    • 30 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    beauty_in_colour
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 18, 9:44 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 18, 9:44 PM
    Thank you coupon-mad. I wrote to the court to attend as a lay representative to help him out. He was offering silly defences like not being able to afford that kind of debt etc and i felt we probably had a little more substance - i will post the defence in a new thread.
    Thank you
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 9th Jul 18, 5:24 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    • #4
    • 9th Jul 18, 5:24 AM
    • #4
    • 9th Jul 18, 5:24 AM
    WS from other thread

    would be grateful if you would cast your eye over this witness statement which i prepared on behalf of my son who is dyslexic

    IN THE xxxx COUNTY COURT CLAIM NO: xxxxxx

    Case: National Parking Management 1st Claimant vs Mr xxxx
    Claim Number: xxxxx
    Date: xxx
    In the County Court of xxxx

    Xxxx 2018


    STATEMENT OF xxxxxx

    1. I, xxxxx, of xxxx, acting on behalf of

    the Defendant will say as follows:-

    2. It is admitted that the Defendant is the registered keeper of the vehicle in

    question.

    The Defendant is also a resident of xxxxx, where the offence is claimed

    to have been committed and the vehicle is registered to the defendant at

    Xxxxxx

    3. Exhibited to this Witness Statement are the following documents which the

    Defendant intends to rely upon.

    i) The letter from xxxxx the management agents informing residents of their intention to monitor non-resident parking at xxxxx

    ii) The Tenancy agreement issued to the tenants of xxxxx This is not included in this statement pack and will be provided in court. If the Claimant does not show up in court they will have the tenant!!!8217;s information which may breach data protection.


    4. The Claimant has no cause for action because National Parking Management

    (NPM) have not acted in accordance with the spirit of the letter that was sent to

    all residents of xxxxxx (the managing agents) on

    X September 2016.

    NPM have applied their powers unreasonably by taking enforcement action

    against bona fide residents. The letter from xxxx states clearly that

    NPM were put in place to deter non-residents from abusing the free parking

    rightfully available to residents of xxxx.

    Furthermore all parking permits clearly display the vehicle owner!!!8217;s address and

    it is contended that this is not only unsafe but is also a security risk and in direct

    contravention of the data protection act 1998.


    5. NPM!!!8217;s one size fits all policy of imposing penalties to residents as well as non-

    residents is morally wrong and not in accordance with their mandate which was

    to monitor and control the parking at xxxx. The Defendant is of the

    view that more appropriate methods of differentiating between residents and

    non-residents could have been applied particularly as NPM appears to have

    access to DVLA records of registered vehicles and their owners.


    6. The defendant is of the opinion that NPM is not acting in the interest of the

    residents of xxxx by protecting them as mandated but have effectively

    turned residents into sitting duck cash cows from which a regular source of

    profitable income is to be made.


    7. NPM has stepped outside it!!!8217;s remit by passing on the Defendant!!!8217;s details to

    third party debt collection agencies who have sent harassing and threatening

    letters. This contravenes the Data Protection Act of 1998, and the GDPR which

    comes into effect in 2018


    8. The Defendant feels that the penalties are not fines as NPM are not mandated

    to fine residents. These penalties are in effect invoices issued for failure to

    display a parking permit which has already been issued to residents. Non-

    residents do not have parking permits and so by definition residents posses a

    permit and must not be made to pay for failing to display them. The defendant

    challenges the legal rights of NPM to impose such penalties and totally rejects

    these invoices.


    9. The letter from the management agents states quite clearly that all residents

    would be issued with permits and nowhere is it implied or stated that fines would

    be issued. Furthermore NPM were required to issue permits to ALL residents but

    failed to do so. The Defendant asserts this has left him between a rock and a

    hard place.

    10. The Defendant asserts his right to quiet and peaceful enjoyment of the

    parking spaces available to residents of xxxx under the tenancy

    agreement with the management company and by supremacy of contract is

    under no moral or legal obligation to display any sort of permit or required to

    pay any sort of parking !!!8216;fine!!!8217;. Pace v Mr N [2016], C6GF14F0 [2016].


    11. The Defendant also states that he succumbed to pressure after being issued

    with a County Court Claim and in panic paid an amount of xxx in respect of 2

    PCNs. It is the intention of the Defendant to counter claim for a refund of this

    amount should his defence be successful.


    12. It should be noted that National Parking Management no longer operate in

    the xxx area and as such their agreement with xxxx is no

    longer effective. All signs and notices concerning the NPM parking enforcement

    Contract have been taken down. Therefore the Defendant feels that the claimant

    has no cause for action.


    I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true.


    Signed:________________________________


    Date:____________________________
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 9th Jul 18, 5:29 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 18, 5:29 AM
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 18, 5:29 AM
    The winning issues will be the letter from the MA about "non-residents". You have to have a copy of all you are relying on with the WS so have that.

    At 6 you can use the phrase "avers" rather than "is of the opinion". Also add to the end of 6.

    "As such the Claimant has no legitimate interest in issuing these charges".

    You should also change "National Parking Management" to "the Claimant" wherever it appears.

    Important: When you get their WS post up a copy here are there will be items in there that can be used for the final documents which is the Skeleton Argument.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 9th Jul 18, 7:43 AM
    • 10,598 Posts
    • 10,436 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 18, 7:43 AM
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 18, 7:43 AM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • beauty_in_colour
    • By beauty_in_colour 9th Jul 18, 12:40 PM
    • 30 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    beauty_in_colour
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 18, 12:40 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 18, 12:40 PM
    Thank you, The Deep, I totally agree and i am totally hacked off that they are allowed to get away with this because there is no egislation in place yet and they take advantage of loop holes. I have read the bill proposed by Sir Greg Knight, MP for East Yorkshire and note the second reading was in February this year.
    The management company eventually withdrew the contract given to the parking management company and we seem to be living in peace - with ample parking for residents and visitors. I appreciate something needs to be done to control rogue non-residents but targeting residents seems to be very rich picking at the moment.
    Last edited by beauty_in_colour; 09-07-2018 at 9:13 PM.
    • beauty_in_colour
    • By beauty_in_colour 9th Jul 18, 12:51 PM
    • 30 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    beauty_in_colour
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 18, 12:51 PM
    Posting the Claimant WS
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 18, 12:51 PM
    Thank you very much. I will post the Claimant witness statement as soon as I have figured out how to do this - unless you have some tips?
    In the meantime, i have already submitted the defendants witness statement but nevertheless thank you for the corrections you mentioned above. I feel sorry for finding this forum late in the day but the problem came to my notice late in the day. I will figure out to scan and copy the WS statement here. Thanks for your suggestions so far
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 9th Jul 18, 1:29 PM
    • 3,355 Posts
    • 2,305 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 18, 1:29 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 18, 1:29 PM
    I will post the Claimant witness statement as soon as I have figured out how to do this - unless you have some tips?
    Originally posted by beauty_in_colour
    Scan or take a photo (jpg) of the letter and use a hosting site such as tinypic or imgur (there are others) and when you have done that post the URL but replace http(s) with hxxp(s) and the rest of the URL and someone will make it live for you after checking it contains only what it says on the tin.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 9th Jul 18, 1:38 PM
    • 3,769 Posts
    • 6,183 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    The management company eventually withdrew the contract given to the management company and we seem to be living in peace - with ample parking for residents and visitors
    That is very relevant to item 6. Clearly the Claimant had no justification to target residents, a point confirmed by their removal. See if you can get it in somewhere.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • beauty_in_colour
    • By beauty_in_colour 9th Jul 18, 9:10 PM
    • 30 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    beauty_in_colour
    Claimant ws
    Here is the claimant ws

    hxxps://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/cb58b497-f1eb-4a04-8ac1-463885e0395d


    Many thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Jul 18, 11:54 PM
    • 63,887 Posts
    • 76,542 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/cb58b497-f1eb-4a04-8ac1-463885e0395d

    Wow, look at the note with the asterisk on page one; they admit they have WITHHELD evidence from the Defendant, under the hopeless excuse of data protection. That means in court you/the D can object to that piece of evidence when they try to foist it at you on the day, giving you no chance to examine and scrutinise the detail, dates/restrictions/exemption or to check out the authenticity of the signatories, etc.

    So you can strongly suggest to the Judge on the day, that their failure to adhere to the CPR means that that withheld piece of evidence should not be allowed. Do not accept any paperwork foisted at the D on the day.

    The WS is a mess! Just read through it, no page numbering, no paragraph numbering, random illogical things included (talking about parking enforcement being to deter criminal activity, LOL, and talking about 'permits' on the one hand, but 'keeping the roads clear' i.e. not offering a licence to park, on the other).

    The debt collection fee of £60 is false, a lie. Put them to strict proof that they paid sixty quid a pop to a debt collector, per unpaid PCN, which they didn't because parking firms' debt collectors like Debt Recovery Plus, advertise on their website as a 'no-collection no fee' service.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-07-2018 at 12:48 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • beauty_in_colour
    • By beauty_in_colour 10th Jul 18, 6:21 AM
    • 30 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    beauty_in_colour
    Thank you. I highlighted that paragraph concerning the withholding of the agreement for that very reason. I wrote to the estate management company requesting a copy of their agreement with the PMC and they basically fobbed me off with the same excuse.
    On that matter, will it be a case of the judge adjourning the case on the day so I have time to study the agreement? Should I ask for an adjournment?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 10th Jul 18, 8:14 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
    • 6,183 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    The other issue is who was actually driving on each of the occasions. There is no reference to POFA so it appears that NPM are making the assumption the defendant is the driver - but has produced no evidence of the same.

    We'd need to see their paperwork (the charges) to see if they can invoke POFA but driver identity should be a line of defence, unless that was discarded earlier.

    Was your communications with NPM included in the pack as if it wasn't then a lot of what has been said by them is challengeable.

    The key point - and this is the one you need to get out of the traps first - is that the signs (their contract) can only have effect IF their letter of authorisation is a) valid , b) relates to the area parked on, c) allows action in their own name a d) is "legitimate".

    NPM have messed up that last one where they say the £100 is for their company's legitimate interest rather than the clients' interest. You've said earlier, the client's interest was spelled out as being the removal of non-residents. So get that in front & centre too.

    As well as the WS, send an extensive list of costs to NPM as it is clear they'll be in the frame for them. It needs to be with them a few days prior to the hearing.
    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 10-07-2018 at 8:20 AM.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • beauty_in_colour
    • By beauty_in_colour 10th Jul 18, 10:46 AM
    • 30 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    beauty_in_colour
    The other issue is who was actually driving on each of the occasions. There is no reference to POFA so it appears that NPM are making the assumption the defendant is the driver - but has produced no evidence of the same.

    We'd need to see their paperwork (the charges) to see if they can invoke POFA but driver identity should be a line of defence, unless that was discarded earlier.
    They are making assumptions but as mentioned my son had a small number of email correspondence with them directly and did not deny he was the driver and We did not want to lie about it.

    Yes our communication is included in the pack theWas your communications with NPM included in the pack as if it wasn't then a lot of what has been said by them is challengeable.y submitted to the court.

    The key point - and this is the one you need to get out of the traps first - is that the signs (their contract) can only have effect IF their letter of authorisation is a) valid , b) relates to the area parked on, c) allows action in their own name a d) is "legitimate".
    I am unable to scrutinise this detail as they have made it quite clear that we will not be given a copy of their contract until the day of the hearing. They have included in the pack photos of their notices, their locations on the estate as well as an overview map of the area they were monitoring.

    I also want to rely on the fact that the parking permit itself was unsafe and a security risk because it had our address on it ie house number as well as street name.

    As well as the WS, send an extensive list of costs to NPM as it is clear they'll be in the frame for them. It needs to be with them a few days prior to the hearing.
    Please help me understand what this means. An extensive lists of cost? What sort of cost for example?

    Many thanks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Jul 18, 10:56 AM
    • 20,250 Posts
    • 31,946 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Please help me understand what this means. An extensive lists of cost? What sort of cost for example?
    Have a look in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2 where LoadsofChildren123 (a practising solicitor) has produced a model costs schedule. Use that as your starting point.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 10-07-2018 at 5:10 PM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 10th Jul 18, 12:23 PM
    • 2,427 Posts
    • 4,042 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Write to the Claimant now:


    Dear Sirs


    Please provide a full copy of the contract authorising you to operate on the relevant land on the relevant date.


    Without this I cannot properly defend the claim because you have not proven that you have any authority to operate on the part of the land where the car was parked, or if you are what the terms of your authority are.


    I note that you confirm your refusal to provide this document in the Witness Statement of X, citing that it is "commercially sensitive". It is not and it is absurd to claim otherwise. They are the precise terms under which you operate. I am entitled to see them, and to do so in advance of the final hearing. Antics like this have been tried before by private parking companies and I can find no other case where the withholding of core evidence has been allowed. This is a simple contract between you and the landowner (or the landowner's agent) which will tell me whether or not you are entitled to have issued a PCN, and whether or not you are entitled to bring and pursue these proceedings.


    It is unacceptable to say you will produce this document to me only in court, and only on the day of the final hearing. Trial in this country is not by ambush and each party is obliged to furnish the other with all relevant information in advance. You have been ordered by the court to produce all evidence on which you rely and you are now in contempt of court by failing to do so.


    I put you on notice that if you produce the contract on the day, I will invite the court to disregard it and to hold that you have not satisfied the burden of proof that you have any locus standi to have brought this claim. I will also ask for costs under CPR Part 27.14(2)(g) because you have clearly acted in a wholly unreasonable manner. The contract is a document which should have been provided at the pre-action phase, not on the day of the trial.


    Yours faithfully
    Son
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • beauty_in_colour
    • By beauty_in_colour 10th Jul 18, 12:32 PM
    • 30 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    beauty_in_colour
    Write to the Claimant now:
    Excellent!. I will write that letter today.

    Kind regards
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 18, 12:51 AM
    • 63,887 Posts
    • 76,542 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    On that matter, will it be a case of the judge adjourning the case on the day so I have time to study the agreement? Should I ask for an adjournment?
    No, you would object, NOT take the document foisted at you, and point out the Claimant is legally represented and has had ample time to furnish you with this information before court stage, and has unreasonably withheld it.

    No adjournment.

    You want that evidence struck out/disallowed, due to the C's failure to abide by the Practice Direction and trying to ambush you with it, and they cannot reasonably be allowed another try later, at more time/money cost to you to drop everything in life to attend a second hearing.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 11th Jul 18, 6:52 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
    • 6,183 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    No, you would object, NOT take the document foisted at you, and point out the Claimant is legally represented and has had ample time to furnish you with this information before court stage, and has unreasonably withheld it.
    The claimant's legal representative will have explained to the Claimant about withholding of evidence so the Defendant can only presume the Claimant is engages is wholly unreasonable and vexatious behaviour in this matter.

    [Courts will always presume legal representatives are honest and upstanding. The inference is that if there is any double dealing it is the client at fault. So by the same inference, NPM are the ones, who after legal advice, are being duplicitous.

    So instead of complaining about Gladstones - target the clients.]
    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 11-07-2018 at 6:58 AM.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
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