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  • FIRST POST
    • Azure6
    • By Azure6 6th Jul 18, 9:50 AM
    • 13Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Azure6
    PLEASE HELP - POPLA appeal rejected - Minster Baywatch
    • #1
    • 6th Jul 18, 9:50 AM
    PLEASE HELP - POPLA appeal rejected - Minster Baywatch 6th Jul 18 at 9:50 AM
    Dear reader,

    I have followed the NEWBIE thread after receiving a postal PCN from Minster Baywatch for not paying for a ticket. The signage was unclear.
    Site: Mecca Bingo, Oldham.

    I proceeded through the various stages and then submitted POPLA appeal and then rebutted evidence however yesterday POPLA rejected my appeal - they are saying signage was clear and 100 is reasonable based on Beavis case.

    They now want me to pay 100 pounds. I am incredibly disheartened as I have invested considerable time and effort into this with the help of this forum of course.
    I genuinely believed in my case and feel the signage is so unclear with font size illegible.

    What shall I do now? I am afraid of further court fees and feel Minster Baywatch have the upper hand as they have won POPLA appeal.

    Please help.
    Thank you
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 6th Jul 18, 9:59 AM
    • 37,389 Posts
    • 84,250 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 6th Jul 18, 9:59 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Jul 18, 9:59 AM
    PoPLA is a 50/50 lottery, whereas a forum defended court case had a 99% success rate last year when people followed the advice.

    The PoPLA decision is not binding on the motorist so it and any subsequent debt crawler letters can be ignored.

    Do nothing now unless the scammers try court, in which case follow the advice in Post 2 of the NEWBIES court Guide by bargepole, and come back to this thread if you need further help.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 6th Jul 18, 10:02 AM
    • 9,995 Posts
    • 9,805 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 6th Jul 18, 10:02 AM
    • #3
    • 6th Jul 18, 10:02 AM
    - they are saying signage was clear and 100 is reasonable based on Beavis case.

    I suspect that the Beavis case and this one may be very dissimilar. In Beavis PE were paying the landowner £1,000 a week, and the car park was free.

    I would not tend to place too much importance on a PoPLA decision, most of the so called adkudicators are, I believe, young law graduates unable to obtain training contracts or places in chambers.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    Last edited by The Deep; 06-07-2018 at 10:05 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 6th Jul 18, 10:08 AM
    • 37,266 Posts
    • 21,414 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #4
    • 6th Jul 18, 10:08 AM
    • #4
    • 6th Jul 18, 10:08 AM
    You ask what to do after popla fails, but this is all covered in the Newbies FAQ

    If you don't like the advice here ( which is to now ignore everything except court correspondence) then your other option ( not recommended here) is to end it by paying them
    • Azure6
    • By Azure6 6th Jul 18, 11:46 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Azure6
    • #5
    • 6th Jul 18, 11:46 AM
    • #5
    • 6th Jul 18, 11:46 AM
    Thank you for your kind responses
    I will paste in the response from POPLA assessor for increased clarity
    • Azure6
    • By Azure6 6th Jul 18, 11:47 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Azure6
    • #6
    • 6th Jul 18, 11:47 AM
    • #6
    • 6th Jul 18, 11:47 AM
    POPLA assessment and decision
    05/07/2018
    Verification Code
    x
    Decision
    Unsuccessful
    Assessor Name
    X

    Assessor summary of operator case
    The operator’s case is that the vehicle was not authorised.
    Assessor summary of your case
    The appellant’s case is that the driver on the day in question was a customer at Mecca Bingo but they were unaware of the terms and conditions due to inadequate signage. The appellant has raised several grounds of appeal such as: • The signage is not prominent, clear or legible. • No contract was entered into. • No evidence of landowner authority. • Notice to keeper is not liable with the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. • The amount demanded is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss. To support the appeal, the appellant has provided POPLA with photographs of the car park, a copy of the notice to keeper, a response from the operator and a letter to the operator.
    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    In this case, it is not clear who the driver of the appellant’s vehicle is, so I must consider PoFA 2012, as the operator issued the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to the keeper of the vehicle. The operator has provided me with a copy of the notice to keeper sent to the appellant. I have reviewed the notice to keeper against the relevant sections of PoFA 2012 and I am satisfied that it is compliant. When it comes to parking on private land, a motorist accepts the terms and conditions of the site by parking their vehicle. The terms and conditions are stipulated on the signs displayed within the car park. The operator has provided both PDF document versions and photographic evidence of the signage displayed on site. The signs state “Mecca Bingo and Bank Top Tavern patrons: vehicles must be included on an authorised user list. Parking charge £100.” The car park in question is monitored by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras. The operator has provided photographic evidence of the appellant’s vehicle entering the site at 13:31pm and exited the site at 14:47pm. The images captured by the ANPR cameras confirm that the appellant’s vehicle remained on site for a total of one hour and 16 minutes. The operator has provided a copy of a system generated print out that shows that the appellant’s vehicle registration number does not appear on the date of the event. I note the appellant’s comments and the evidence provided to support their reason for parking at the site in question. The appellant says the parking charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss. The legality of parking charges has been the subject of a high profile court case, ParkingEye-v-Beavis. Cambridge County Court heard the case initially, handing down a decision in May 2014 that a parking charge of £85 was allowable. It held that the parking charge had the characteristics of a penalty, in the sense in which that expression is conventionally used, but one that was commercially justifiable because it was neither improper in its purpose nor manifestly excessive in its amount. Mr Beavis took the case to the Court of Appeal, which refused the appeal in April 2015, stating that the charge was neither extravagant nor unconscionable. Mr Beavis further appealed to the Supreme Court, which on 4 November 2015, concluded: “…the £85 charge is not a penalty. Both ParkingEye and the landowners had a legitimate interest in charging overstaying motorists, which extended beyond the recovery of any loss. The interest of the landowners was the provision and efficient management of customer parking for the retail outlets. The interest of ParkingEye was in income from the charge, which met the running costs of a legitimate scheme plus a profit margin. Further, the charge was neither extravagant nor unconscionable, having regard to practice around the United Kingdom, and taking into account the use of this particular car park and the clear wording of the notices.” As such, I must consider whether the signage at this site is sufficient. When doing so, I must first consider the minimum standards set out in Section 18 of the BPA Code of Practice. Within Section 18.1 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice, it states as follows: “You must use signs to make it easy for them to find out what your terms and conditions are.” Furthermore, Section 18.3 of the BPA Code of Practice states: “You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand.” As stated, these are the minimum standards that a parking operator must meet when informing motorists of the terms and conditions at a particular site. In addition to this, I note that within the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 it discusses the clarity that needs to be provided to make a motorist aware of the parking charge. Specifically, it requires that the driver is given “adequate notice” of the charge. The Act then moved on to define “adequate notice” as follows: (3) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) “adequate notice” means notice given by: (a) the display of one or more notices in accordance with any applicable requirements prescribed in regulations under paragraph 12 for, or for purposes including, the purposes of sub-paragraph (2); or (b) where no such requirements apply, the display of one or more notices which: (i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and (ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land. Even in circumstances where PoFA 2012 does not apply, I believe this to be a reasonable standard to use when making my own independent assessment of the signage in place at the location. Having considered the signage in place at this particular site against the requirements of Section 18 of the BPA Code of Practice and PoFA 2012, I am of the view that the signage at the site is sufficient to bring the parking charge to the attention of the motorist. Therefore, having considered the decision of the Supreme Court decision, I conclude that the parking charge in this instance is allowable. Although the charge may not be a genuine pre-estimate of loss; the signage at the location is clear, the motorist did not keep to the terms and conditions set out on the signage, and the charge is neither extravagant nor unconscionable. While the charge in this instance was £100; this is in the region of the £85 charge decided on by the Supreme Court. Section 7.1 of the BPA Code of Practice outlines to operators, “If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”. The operator has provided a copy of the contract which provides the operator authorisation to operator on the land in question, which gives it the authority to carry out all aspects of the car park. The onus is on the driver to ensure they are registered on the authorisation list as they were a Mecca Bingo customer, as the driver has failed to do this they have breached the terms and conditions. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that when they enter a car park, they have understood the terms and conditions of parking. If the appellant suspected that the terms and conditions of the site could not be complied with, there would have been sufficient time to leave the site without entering into a contract with the operator. By remaining parked on site, the appellant accepted the terms and conditions. On this occasion, the appellant has failed to follow the terms and conditions of the signage at the site. I conclude that the operator issued the Parking Charge Notice correctly. Accordingly, I must refuse this appeal.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Jul 18, 12:37 PM
    • 19,389 Posts
    • 30,623 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 6th Jul 18, 12:37 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Jul 18, 12:37 PM
    Can't read that wall of text - 1,400 words in one huge block without a single paragraph!
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Azure6
    • By Azure6 6th Jul 18, 2:52 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Azure6
    • #8
    • 6th Jul 18, 2:52 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Jul 18, 2:52 PM
    Sorry I just pasted directly as received
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Jul 18, 5:10 PM
    • 9,201 Posts
    • 9,372 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #9
    • 6th Jul 18, 5:10 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Jul 18, 5:10 PM
    Sorry I just pasted directly as received
    Originally posted by Azure6
    We can see that.

    I won't even try to read it.

    Maybe edit your post to make it more readable? Just an idea.
    Help others to help you.
    .
    • Azure6
    • By Azure6 6th Jul 18, 9:30 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Azure6
    Hope this is easier - sorry i know its huge.

    POPLA assessment and decision
    05/07/2018
    Verification Code
    x
    Decision
    Unsuccessful
    Assessor Name
    X

    Assessor summary of operator case
    The operator’s case is that the vehicle was not authorised.

    Assessor summary of your case
    The appellant’s case is that the driver on the day in question was a customer at Mecca Bingo but they were unaware of the terms and conditions due to inadequate signage. The appellant has raised several grounds of appeal such as: • The signage is not prominent, clear or legible. • No contract was entered into. • No evidence of landowner authority. • Notice to keeper is not liable with the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. • The amount demanded is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss. To support the appeal, the appellant has provided POPLA with photographs of the car park, a copy of the notice to keeper, a response from the operator and a letter to the operator.

    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    In this case, it is not clear who the driver of the appellant’s vehicle is, so I must consider PoFA 2012, as the operator issued the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to the keeper of the vehicle. The operator has provided me with a copy of the notice to keeper sent to the appellant. I have reviewed the notice to keeper against the relevant sections of PoFA 2012 and I am satisfied that it is compliant. When it comes to parking on private land, a motorist accepts the terms and conditions of the site by parking their vehicle. The terms and conditions are stipulated on the signs displayed within the car park.

    The operator has provided both PDF document versions and photographic evidence of the signage displayed on site. The signs state “Mecca Bingo and Bank Top Tavern patrons: vehicles must be included on an authorised user list. Parking charge £100.” The car park in question is monitored by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras. The operator has provided photographic evidence of the appellant’s vehicle entering the site at 13:31pm and exited the site at 14:47pm. The images captured by the ANPR cameras confirm that the appellant’s vehicle remained on site for a total of one hour and 16 minutes. The operator has provided a copy of a system generated print out that shows that the appellant’s vehicle registration number does not appear on the date of the event.

    I note the appellant’s comments and the evidence provided to support their reason for parking at the site in question. The appellant says the parking charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss. The legality of parking charges has been the subject of a high profile court case, ParkingEye-v-Beavis. Cambridge County Court heard the case initially, handing down a decision in May 2014 that a parking charge of £85 was allowable. It held that the parking charge had the characteristics of a penalty, in the sense in which that expression is conventionally used, but one that was commercially justifiable because it was neither improper in its purpose nor manifestly excessive in its amount.

    Mr Beavis took the case to the Court of Appeal, which refused the appeal in April 2015, stating that the charge was neither extravagant nor unconscionable. Mr Beavis further appealed to the Supreme Court, which on 4 November 2015, concluded: “…the £85 charge is not a penalty. Both ParkingEye and the landowners had a legitimate interest in charging overstaying motorists, which extended beyond the recovery of any loss. The interest of the landowners was the provision and efficient management of customer parking for the retail outlets. The interest of ParkingEye was in income from the charge, which met the running costs of a legitimate scheme plus a profit margin.

    Further, the charge was neither extravagant nor unconscionable, having regard to practice around the United Kingdom, and taking into account the use of this particular car park and the clear wording of the notices.” As such, I must consider whether the signage at this site is sufficient. When doing so, I must first consider the minimum standards set out in Section 18 of the BPA Code of Practice. Within Section 18.1 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice, it states as follows: “You must use signs to make it easy for them to find out what your terms and conditions are.”

    Furthermore, Section 18.3 of the BPA Code of Practice states: “You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand.” As stated, these are the minimum standards that a parking operator must meet when informing motorists of the terms and conditions at a particular site.

    In addition to this, I note that within the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 it discusses the clarity that needs to be provided to make a motorist aware of the parking charge. Specifically, it requires that the driver is given “adequate notice” of the charge. The Act then moved on to define “adequate notice” as follows: (3) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) “adequate notice” means notice given by: (a) the display of one or more notices in accordance with any applicable requirements prescribed in regulations under paragraph 12 for, or for purposes including, the purposes of sub-paragraph (2); or (b) where no such requirements apply, the display of one or more notices which: (i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and (ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land.

    Even in circumstances where PoFA 2012 does not apply, I believe this to be a reasonable standard to use when making my own independent assessment of the signage in place at the location. Having considered the signage in place at this particular site against the requirements of Section 18 of the BPA Code of Practice and PoFA 2012, I am of the view that the signage at the site is sufficient to bring the parking charge to the attention of the motorist.

    Therefore, having considered the decision of the Supreme Court decision, I conclude that the parking charge in this instance is allowable. Although the charge may not be a genuine pre-estimate of loss; the signage at the location is clear, the motorist did not keep to the terms and conditions set out on the signage, and the charge is neither extravagant nor unconscionable.

    While the charge in this instance was £100; this is in the region of the £85 charge decided on by the Supreme Court. Section 7.1 of the BPA Code of Practice outlines to operators, “If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for.

    In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”. The operator has provided a copy of the contract which provides the operator authorisation to operator on the land in question, which gives it the authority to carry out all aspects of the car park.

    The onus is on the driver to ensure they are registered on the authorisation list as they were a Mecca Bingo customer, as the driver has failed to do this they have breached the terms and conditions. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that when they enter a car park, they have understood the terms and conditions of parking. If the appellant suspected that the terms and conditions of the site could not be complied with, there would have been sufficient time to leave the site without entering into a contract with the operator. By remaining parked on site, the appellant accepted the terms and conditions. On this occasion, the appellant has failed to follow the terms and conditions of the signage at the site. I conclude that the operator issued the Parking Charge Notice correctly. Accordingly, I must refuse this appeal.
    • Azure6
    • By Azure6 6th Jul 18, 9:36 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Azure6
    Hi,

    I am going to wait it out till county court letters and then take it from there with all your help (thank you).

    Questions:
    1) I know in Newbie #2 it says even if you fail at county court you just pay the amount within 30 days - does this mean no additional court fees will be added by Minster Baywatch?

    2) I am away for a month in August - POPLA have given me until end of July to pay the £100 penalty. I'm assuming I'll start getting letters from Minster Baywatch after this.
    I'm worried I may miss county court letters/deadlines whilst I'm away.
    What are the chances that Minster Baywatch will accelerate to county court letters within August and what happens if i miss them whilst i'm away?

    Thank you ever so much to you who are taking time out to help
    This forum has given me the courage to fight on
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 6th Jul 18, 9:48 PM
    • 37,266 Posts
    • 21,414 Thanks
    Quentin
    Highly unlikely a claim will turn up in August.

    You can expect to go through the debt collectors phase first. Normally months of ignoring

    A lbcca gives you at least 30 days to pay before they then go to the expense of issuing a claim.

    A claim will include court fees for issuing the claim. If you end up losing at a hearing you would have to pay for the hearing fee too
    Last edited by Quentin; 06-07-2018 at 10:07 PM.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 6th Jul 18, 9:48 PM
    • 3,546 Posts
    • 2,618 Thanks
    Tarambor
    Hi,

    I am going to wait it out till county court letters and then take it from there with all your help (thank you).

    Questions:
    1) I know in Newbie #2 it says even if you fail at county court you just pay the amount within 30 days - does this mean no additional court fees will be added by Minster Baywatch?
    Originally posted by Azure6
    No, it means that you'll not have a CCJ registered against you. They can apply to have their costs added which can include not only the court fees but their legal fees too.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Jul 18, 9:51 PM
    • 19,389 Posts
    • 30,623 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Notice to keeper is not liable with the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012.
    Gobbledygook, but what exactly did you argue (and why) on PoFA?

    While the charge in this instance was £100; this is in the region of the £85 charge decided on by the Supreme Court.
    Eminently predictable once you pulled that old relic (GPEOL) out of the hat.

    If you're up for a cage-rattling of POPLA, write to John Gallagher (Lead POPLA Adjdicator) and ask on what authority they have dispensation to re-interpret the Supreme Court's Judgment (the highest Court in the land) on where the line falls on what is the limit of an 'unconscionable' charge.

    As far as you are concerned, £85 is £85 - as determined by the ultimate Court in the UK. Who are POPLA Assessors to utilise a flex in favour of the PPC - rather than the motorist?

    Put him under pressure on this. Needs sorting!
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Azure6
    • By Azure6 6th Jul 18, 10:04 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Azure6
    Thank you - Ill do this right away
    • Azure6
    • By Azure6 6th Jul 18, 10:10 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Azure6
    This for POFA

    Under the Practice Direction the NTK did not have the following sections:
    - a clear summary of the facts on which the claim is based;
    - if financial loss is claimed, an explanation of how the amount has been calculated; and
    - details of any funding arrangement (within the meaning of rule 43.2(1)(k) of the CPR) that has been entered into by the claimant.
    -list the essential documents on which the claimant intends to rely;
    -refer the defendant to this Practice Direction and in particular draw attention to paragraph 4 concerning the court's powers to impose sanctions for failure to comply with the Practice Direction

    Main 2 arguments for my case were no GPEOL and unclear sigange - both of which were rejected
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Jul 18, 10:33 PM
    • 9,201 Posts
    • 9,372 Thanks
    KeithP
    No, it means that you'll not have a CCJ registered against you. They can apply to have their costs added which can include not only the court fees but their legal fees too.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Can you please expand on 'their legal fees'?

    Are you aware that costs are severely restricted in the Small Claims Court?
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Jul 18, 12:44 AM
    • 61,458 Posts
    • 74,346 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Main 2 arguments for my case were no GPEOL and unclear sigange - both of which were rejected
    Originally posted by Azure6
    I'm not surprised, no GPEOL went out with the Ark...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Azure6
    • By Azure6 7th Jul 18, 2:02 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Azure6
    I notice no GPEOL is where POPLA appeals have been won the most - does this mean we should not use GPEOL now? (I did mention amount being punitive too)
    Thank you
    • Azure6
    • By Azure6 7th Jul 18, 2:03 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Azure6
    Are we talking in the regions another £100-£200 being added on top?
    Thank you
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