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  • FIRST POST
    • nisob
    • By nisob 6th Jul 18, 2:20 AM
    • 7Posts
    • 4Thanks
    nisob
    PCN - driver left site
    • #1
    • 6th Jul 18, 2:20 AM
    PCN - driver left site 6th Jul 18 at 2:20 AM
    Hi,

    This is in connection to a recent PCN issued by UKPC to the driver for leaving the site. A few forums were researched before asking questions here. The PCN in this case carries the same 'time first seen' and 'issue time'. Is this even possible? Can one appeal against this?
    The driver parked the car on site to use its facilities, but before this he/she went to the train station (which is next to the parking facility and has its stairs within the parking site) to collect a friend. That probably is the reason for the ticket.

    However, the driver believes that it is extremely wrong that the time first seen is 13:08 and the issue time is 13:08. The driver had waited for 4-5 min in car before they left and had noticed the PCN guy watching them. In addition, upon checking the penalty payment area in UKPC website, there is no evidence on driver leaving the site. There are only images of the car with pcn on and the UKPC signage. Therefore can the driver appeal against the lack of evidence as well the timings on the pcn? In addition, there was no clear explanation of the "site boundaries". Then how would one know if going to the railway station to collect a friend wasn't correct?

    Please confirm if one can appeal on the above-mentioned grounds?

    Thanks
    San
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Jul 18, 6:29 AM
    • 18,355 Posts
    • 29,050 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 6th Jul 18, 6:29 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Jul 18, 6:29 AM
    Read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 where there is a ready made initial appeal template. Use that 'as is', no need to add anything.

    Also read this to understand the issues about 'leaving the site'. It was the last time such a case was pursued through the courts, seems that PPCs aren't prepared to risk that again.

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=16231)

    'Leaving the site' PCNs have become more prevalent in recent months, possibly as 'overstay' income is falling as the public become more aware of the penalties surrounding that. The PPCs are relying on the fact that many will simply pay and not challenge and win via POPLA (if BPA operators, as UKPC are).

    What do the signs say about 'leaving the site'? Go and get your own photos of the signage, close up of the wording and particularly the proximity of the signs in relation to where your vehicle was parked.

    Do your research, follow forum advice, then get this killed at POPLA.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 06-07-2018 at 9:07 AM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 6th Jul 18, 8:34 AM
    • 7,781 Posts
    • 10,364 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #3
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:34 AM
    • #3
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:34 AM
    Yes, this has been a little wheeze with UKPC for a
    while now.

    If the claim is "leaving site", they must prove that

    UKPC wardens cannot be trusted as they use fake pictures


    UKPC appear to use predator tactics which could be
    getting close to upskirt type pics.

    Proof is required
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 6th Jul 18, 8:45 AM
    • 9,697 Posts
    • 9,530 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #4
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:45 AM
    • #4
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:45 AM
    PPCs have been very reluctant to take leaving site cases to court since Miss Coates was threatened with prison. Rad this, the famous "toothbrush" case

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=16231)

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    Last edited by The Deep; 06-07-2018 at 8:48 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 6th Jul 18, 11:34 AM
    • 3,113 Posts
    • 4,756 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #5
    • 6th Jul 18, 11:34 AM
    • #5
    • 6th Jul 18, 11:34 AM
    The UKPC website does not mention a "penalty" does it, and it's not a fine either.
    This is a scam invoice, UKPC have devised this trap to extract money.

    If leaving site was so detrimental to the profitability of the premises which these scamming muppets were engaged to protect, why did their tame village idiot allow the contravention of the T&C's to happen, and just watch?

    The reason is simple, it's entrapment to make money, and the dim attendent has a bonus to make.

    Follow the advice on here, don't go it alone, this is very unlikely to go to court for all the reasons mentioned, but you need to kill the hassle dead.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jul 18, 11:41 PM
    • 59,463 Posts
    • 72,628 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 6th Jul 18, 11:41 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Jul 18, 11:41 PM
    Therefore can the driver appeal
    No, the KEEPER does, on day 26 online - same as every UKPC windscreen PCN. Please read the NEWBIES FAQS to understand what to submit and why to wait till day 26.

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • nisob
    • By nisob 9th Jul 18, 11:05 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    nisob
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:05 AM
    Images attached
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:05 AM
    Read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 where there is a ready made initial appeal template. Use that 'as is', no need to add anything.

    Also read this to understand the issues about 'leaving the site'. It was the last time such a case was pursued through the courts, seems that PPCs aren't prepared to risk that again.

    {link removed}

    'Leaving the site' PCNs have become more prevalent in recent months, possibly as 'overstay' income is falling as the public become more aware of the penalties surrounding that. The PPCs are relying on the fact that many will simply pay and not challenge and win via POPLA (if BPA operators, as UKPC are).

    What do the signs say about 'leaving the site'? Go and get your own photos of the signage, close up of the wording and particularly the proximity of the signs in relation to where your vehicle was parked.

    Do your research, follow forum advice, then get this killed at POPLA.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Hi Umkomaas,
    Please see the attached images of the signage, station stairs within the parking plot, also images of the parking bay with signage. The links are disabled for newbies so I had to use h**tps.

    h**ps://ibb.co/n99PNT

    h**ps://ibb.co/eV8C98

    h**ps://ibb.co/huRcbo

    I really appreciate your help!! Please let me know if you catch anything in the signage.



    I shall be reading Miss Coates case today. Could you please confirm if this is the template you are referring to? I am thinking of slightly modifying it to make it more relevant to "leaving the site" situation:

    "I appeal and dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn, nor was there an agreed contract. Your signage terms fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence of the parking charge, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis, which is fully distinguished.

    Should you fail to cancel this PCN, I require with your rejection letter, all images taken of this vehicle & the signs at the location that day. Do not withhold any images or data later relied on for POPLA/court.

    Firms of your ilk were unanimously condemned in 2018 as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA & IPC were heavily criticised too; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and say on camera 'we make it up sometimes' (BBC Watchdog).

    I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner, as well as complaining in writing to my MP and ensuring that they are appraised of the debate where Parliament agreed unanimously: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists...should not have to put up with this''.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Jul 18, 11:18 AM
    • 37,008 Posts
    • 83,620 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:18 AM
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:18 AM
    There is only one initial appeal template in the NEWBIES thread. If you copied it from there, it's the right one, even if you did miss part of it off the bottom.

    https://ibb.co/n99PNT

    https://ibb.co/eV8C98

    https://ibb.co/huRcbo
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 09-07-2018 at 11:24 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Jul 18, 11:23 AM
    • 37,008 Posts
    • 83,620 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:23 AM
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:23 AM
    The signs fail the BPA requirements, with the 100 charge buried in tiny print.

    The signs do not define "the site" or show a map detailing the limits of "the site" therefore a motorist could not know if or when they have left "the site."

    The scammer's operative did not mitigate his company's loss by warning the driver they should not leave the site.

    Piece of cake win at PoPLA.

    Send the initial template from the keeper at day 26 as already advised.
    If/when it is rejected, appeal to PoPLA and win.

    Complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 09-07-2018 at 11:25 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Jul 18, 11:32 AM
    • 18,355 Posts
    • 29,050 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    https://ibb.co/n99PNT

    https://ibb.co/eV8C98

    https://ibb.co/huRcbo

    Please let me know if you catch anything in the signage.
    I can't zoom in sufficiently, without losing focus, to read the specifics of the signage. Does it say anything at all about 'leaving the site'. Can you get a better close-up?

    Your photo of where the car was parked needs to be cropped to eliminate the sign (play UKPC at their own game!). You need photos that cannot be used against you. It's unlikely that UKPC will have photo evidence of every single angle of the car park.

    Could you please confirm if this is the template you are referring to?
    If that initial appeal was lifted directly from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 today, then it's current. Coupon-mad does update the sticky from time to time, but short of comparing every word you've transcribed above against every word in today's sticky, I can't say categorically it is or isn't.

    Quite often people copy an initial appeal from another poster's thread from months ago and ask 'Is this the one?' That's why I refer people back to today's sticky.

    I am thinking of slightly modifying it to make it more relevant to "leaving the site" situation:
    And what are you hoping to say? What are you hoping to achieve? (Note - 'Cancellation' is the wrong answer!).
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 09-07-2018 at 11:35 AM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nisob
    • By nisob 9th Jul 18, 11:38 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    nisob
    Gathered Process
    Hi Fruitcake,

    Thank you very much. So the following has been gathered as a process:
    1. The keeper should send the Newbies forum's ''ONE SIZE FITS ALL'' template appeal to UKPC on day 26.
    2. When the challenge is rejected then approach POPLA with the following appeal:
    - The signage fails BPA requirements, lettering of 100 fine is too small
    - The signs do not define "the site" or show a map detailing the limits of "the site" therefore a motorist could not know if or when they have left "the site."

    Much thanks.. This forum is so helpful.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Jul 18, 11:51 AM
    • 37,008 Posts
    • 83,620 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Hi Fruitcake,

    Thank you very much. So the following has been gathered as a process:
    1. The keeper should send the Newbies forum's ''ONE SIZE FITS ALL'' template appeal to UKPC on day 26.
    2. When the challenge is rejected then approach POPLA with the following appeal:
    - The signage fails BPA requirements, lettering of 100 fine is too small
    - The signs do not define "the site" or show a map detailing the limits of "the site" therefore a motorist could not know if or when they have left "the site."

    Much thanks.. This forum is so helpful.
    Originally posted by nisob
    That's just two appeal points. You should use those plus ALL the other relevant ones from post 3 of the NEWBIES that apply.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • nisob
    • By nisob 9th Jul 18, 12:03 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    nisob
    Hi Umkomaas,

    Does it say anything at all about 'leaving the site'. Can you get a better close-up?
    The height of the signage did not allow enough focus of the camera and unfortunately this was the best that could be done. About leaving the site it says:

    "If you leave the site whilst the vehicle remains in the car park you may be liable to receive a parking charge."

    The letters on site were so small that one had to really stare on the signage for couple of minutes to understand what it is saying.

    I shall type down the entire notice message this evening.

    Your photo of where the car was parked needs to be cropped to eliminate the sign (play UKPC at their own game!). You need photos that cannot be used against you. It's unlikely that UKPC will have photo evidence of every single angle of the car park.
    Is this cropped image recommended for use in current appeal stage or POPLA stage? How can it be used to play UKPC (apologies if it is a naive question)?
    The photo evidences of the car on UKPCs' paycharge website were just now checked and the warden has submitted the image of the car parked in the bay with the signage close to it. The warden took images from quite a lot of angles.

    And what are you hoping to say? What are you hoping to achieve? (Note - 'Cancellation' is the wrong answer!).
    I shall get back to you on this later this evening.

    Much appreciated!!
    • nisob
    • By nisob 9th Jul 18, 12:06 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    nisob
    That's just two appeal points. You should use those plus ALL the other relevant ones from post 3 of the NEWBIES that apply.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Thanks, I will have a look into it once again, do an in-depth reading and get back. Much appreciated,
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Jul 18, 12:07 PM
    • 37,008 Posts
    • 83,620 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Initial appeal template from the NEWBIES exactly as it appears. Nowt added and nowt taken away.

    Save everything else for PoPLA.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Jul 18, 12:21 PM
    • 18,355 Posts
    • 29,050 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I shall type down the entire notice message this evening.
    No need. Get your initial appeal in at day 26 (make sure you give the keeper's name and postal address) and hopefully this will drag UKPC away from going to the DVLA to access the data as well as not sending out a PoFA-compliant NtK, then it's a simple 'No Keeper Liability' win at POPLA.

    play UKPC at their own game!
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3229165/Is-PROOF-private-parking-firms-scamming-motorists-Drivers-say-timings-photos-doctored-legally-parked-cars-issued-fines.html
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nisob
    • By nisob 10th Jul 18, 12:43 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    nisob
    And what are you hoping to say? What are you hoping to achieve? (Note - 'Cancellation' is the wrong answer!).

    Hi Umkomaas,

    Apologies, due to some personal problems, I could not reply to you yesterday evening. The only change I am making to the Newbies Thread "One Size Fits all" appeal template is reducing it to the point only.

    Please see the draft as follows:

    Re PCN number:

    I appeal and dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn, nor was there an agreed contract. Your signage terms fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence of the parking charge, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis, which is fully distinguished.

    Should you fail to cancel this PCN, I require with your rejection letter, all images taken of this vehicle & the signs at the location that day. Do not withhold any images or data later relied on for POPLA/court.

    Firms of your ilk were unanimously condemned in 2018 as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA & IPC were heavily criticised too; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and say on camera 'we make it up sometimes' (BBC Watchdog).

    I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner, as well as complaining in writing to my MP and ensuring that they are appraised of the debate where Parliament agreed unanimously: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists...should not have to put up with this''.

    //Comments: I am thinking of removing the striked section as it sounds rough, apologies for saying this, I appreciate how helpful this template is. Removing this doesn't mean that I won't send a complaint to my MP.


    Formal note:

    Service of any rejection letter/POPLA code and/or legal documents by email is expressly disallowed. All responses to me from this point on, must be made by post. Regardless of any MCOL online/email system, service of any court claim must only be made by first class post to the latest address provided by me.

    Yours faithfully,


    Many thanks for supporting!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 18, 12:53 AM
    • 59,463 Posts
    • 72,628 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    That's fine to remove if it isn't your style.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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