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  • FIRST POST
    • Mb1987
    • By Mb1987 17th May 18, 9:29 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Mb1987
    Parkingeye PCN paid by rental car company
    • #1
    • 17th May 18, 9:29 PM
    Parkingeye PCN paid by rental car company 17th May 18 at 9:29 PM
    Hi all,

    I am looking for any advice on where the driver stands with the following:

    Last month a car was rented from europcar for a week away on holiday. During that time a Pcn was issued (24/4) from parkingeye for over staying in an Asda car park date of event being 17/4.

    3 weeks after the original event occurring (09/5) the driver received a letter from europcar saying they had received a PCN and have paid it (£40) and that they have added an admin charge of £40 to this and that the driver now owes them £80 to be paid within 14 days. Is the driver right to argue that they have taken away there right to appeal said PCN?

    Europcar T&Cs:
    9.3. Charges and Fees
    We may charge you for various services that we will carry out as a result of incidents that may occur during the Hire Period and/or how you used the Vehicle. The cost of these charges and fees (inclusive of VAT (or Insurance Premium Tax where applicable)) are listed in the Tariff Guide that is included in the document attached to your confirmation email and/or which is provided to you when you pick up the Vehicle. Such charges and fees include, but are not limited to, the following:
    9.3.1. Relating to Fines and Penalties
    9.3.1.1. You are responsible for and will pay all costs arising from:
    * any congestion or parking charges (or failure to pay them); !!!8232;
    * a breach of any parking restrictions or a road traffic offence or any other offence or !!!8232;infringement involving the Vehicle such as (but not limited to) lane infringement, tunnel, turning and bus lane charges including the costs from the Vehicle being clamped, seized or towed away and any other charges/costs (or failure to pay them) levied by a relevant organisation or issuing authority. !!!8232;You are and will remain primarily liable for such charges and you consent to us notifying such organisations of your personal details to effect a transfer of liability. !!!8232;
    Each time we deal with such correspondence we will charge your credit/debit card for our administration fee which covers the reasonable costs we incur in administering the correspondence associated with each fine, charge or penalty that is issued for the Vehicle during your Hire Period. You have the right to challenge that administration fee
    within 14 days of the date of the invoice. The administration fee will only be refunded if you can provide supporting evidence to show that the issuing authority (i) has rescinded the fine or penalty; and (ii) confirms that the original charge did not apply in any event.
    If we receive a penalty charge notice that is issued for the Vehicle during your Hire Period and which is capable of being paid then we may pay it so that we mitigate the cost of it. Where we, at our discretion and for whatever reason, choose to pay such charges you will reimburse us the said charge plus our administration fee (for each charge we pay or each time we deal with such correspondence). If we do pay it then we will take the following actions:
    * We will inform you by letter that we have paid the penalty and we will enclose an invoice for the cost of the penalty plus our administration fee; and !!!8232;
    * we will tell you that we intend to take the money for the cost of the penalty and the administration fee from your credit/debit card within 14 days of the date of our letter unless you write to us with a legitimate reason why the fine or penalty should not have been paid. !!!8232;
    * If you do not contact us or you admit the validity of the fine or penalty then we will take the money from your credit/debit card on the 15th day following the date of the letter !!!8232;
    * If you do contact us with a legitimate reason as to why the fine or penalty should not be paid then we will put this to the issuing authority. If the issuing authority refuses your appeal then we will confirm this to you and then take the money for the cost of the penalty and the administration fee from your credit/debit card. If the issuing authority allows the appeal and both rescinds the fine or penalty and confirms to us that the original charge did not apply in any event then we will not take any money from your credit/debit card. !!!8232;

    Is this something that can be appealed because as far as I am concerned it's an unsolicited invoice that they're forcing the driver to pay. Any help on the matter and I would be incredibly grateful and sorry to waffle on.

    Regards
    Last edited by Mb1987; 17-05-2018 at 9:51 PM. Reason: Typo
Page 1
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 17th May 18, 9:36 PM
    • 1,509 Posts
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    twhitehousescat
    • #2
    • 17th May 18, 9:36 PM
    • #2
    • 17th May 18, 9:36 PM
    now tell them they have denied your appeal , set out in LAW ,

    small print refers to police/counsil offences NOT a private parking INVOICE
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th May 18, 9:38 PM
    • 18,438 Posts
    • 23,357 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 17th May 18, 9:38 PM
    • #3
    • 17th May 18, 9:38 PM
    and they have not followed BVRLA guidelines either
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 18, 9:45 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
    • 72,587 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 17th May 18, 9:45 PM
    • #4
    • 17th May 18, 9:45 PM
    See other lease car threads for how to complain further and put this in dispute.

    Try searching BVRLA or europcar on this parking forum (not the whole of MSE!) and you should find several examples of robust fights and refusals to pay.

    Put the charge in dispute with your card provider and get it bounced because it's unauthorised and not a fine or penalty covered by the Europcar t&cs.

    Oh, I forgot to add, you CAN still appeal a PE charge after it's paid, they are rare in that they WILL consider a quick appeal, so hurry up and lodge the one in the NEWBIES thread tonight, now, online and choose 'hirer/lessee' in the drop-down menu (NOT DRIVER).

    DO THAT FIRST, NOW. DON'T ASK IF IT'S TOO LATE, JUST DO IT.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Mb1987
    • By Mb1987 17th May 18, 10:09 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mb1987
    • #5
    • 17th May 18, 10:09 PM
    • #5
    • 17th May 18, 10:09 PM
    See other lease car threads for how to complain further and put this in dispute.

    Try searching BVRLA or europcar on this parking forum (not the whole of MSE!) and you should find several examples of robust fights and refusals to pay.

    Put the charge in dispute with your card provider and get it bounced because it's unauthorised and not a fine or penalty covered by the Europcar t&cs.

    Oh, I forgot to add, you CAN still appeal a PE charge after it's paid, they are rare in that they WILL consider a quick appeal, so hurry up and lodge the one in the NEWBIES thread tonight, now, online and choose 'hirer/lessee' in the drop-down menu (NOT DRIVER).

    DO THAT FIRST, NOW. DON'T ASK IF IT'S TOO LATE, JUST DO IT.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Dear Sir/Madam
    Re: PCN No.
    I challenge this 'PCN' as lessee of the car and subsequently request all future correspondence be sent directly to myself at the address listed below:

    My street
    My Town
    My Postcode
    I am the vehicle's hirer and keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definitions under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) now it is proven that in this instance, the registered keeper is not the "keeper" (as defined under POFA), Civil Enforcement has no reason to contact Lex Autolease again regarding this PCN

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either offer me a POPLA code or cancel the charge.

    Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.

    Yours faithfully,

    Is the above an adequate appeal for the circumstances? I'm guessing they won't be interested as they've had their cash and will just expect the driver to appeal to the hire company.

    Many thanks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th May 18, 10:16 PM
    • 18,438 Posts
    • 23,357 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 17th May 18, 10:16 PM
    • #6
    • 17th May 18, 10:16 PM
    you mean HIRER or LESSEE OR keeper , not driver , terminology is key here
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 17th May 18, 10:47 PM
    • 8,000 Posts
    • 7,866 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 17th May 18, 10:47 PM
    • #7
    • 17th May 18, 10:47 PM
    Civil Enforcement has no reason to contact Lex Autolease again...
    What's that all about?

    ParkingEye has no reason to contact Europcar surely?
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 18, 10:59 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
    • 72,587 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 17th May 18, 10:59 PM
    • #8
    • 17th May 18, 10:59 PM
    Get rid of this too:

    Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Mb1987
    • By Mb1987 22nd May 18, 1:34 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mb1987
    • #9
    • 22nd May 18, 1:34 PM
    • #9
    • 22nd May 18, 1:34 PM
    Right so parkingeye have told me as a closed account I need to speak to Europcar regarding the parking charge. I have copied a relevant template from a similiar situation which is as follows.

    I am writing to raise a formal complaint and dispute regarding the letter which informed me I incurred a parking charge and that (for no lawful reason whatsoever) you have just paid it, despite this not being a penalty, and not from any authority. Do you always pay invoices without question, or was this staff error? Either way, you can't expect me to reimburse you for your error.

    This was a private PCN, an invoice (not a fine or penalty) and it was never your liability to pay 'on my behalf'. You have failed to comply with the process set out by the BVRLA and in the BPA/BVRLA 'Memorandum of Understanding', signed in 2013, following the change in the law within the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (the POFA).

    Why did you not discharge potential liability by providing the necessary details of lessee/hirer, in accordance with paragraph 13/14 of the POFA, schedule 4? By not doing this you prevented me from appealing against this private PCN, something that I would have found easy to win at POPLA stage.

    You have denied me that opportunity and disregarded clear BVRLA instructions, as well as the POFA paragraph 13/14.

    Why did you not simply name me as the lessee/hirer, as per the POFA, giving my address and in one simple letter, thereby discharging any liability your company might have been concerned about? You would then have been removed from the issue and I could have appealed - a win-win situation.

    You had no business in paying this 'on my behalf' and in fact you did not, you paid it of your own volition. Your mistake, not at my cost. Where in Terms Conditions of lease/hire, do you contend that you can wrongly and blindly apply the 'local authority' PCN procedure (panicking and paying a PCN that is from no such authority, then demanding money from me as reimbursement)?

    I wish to escalate the matter using the ADR/dispute resolution provided by the BVRLA, and I require the name of the overseeing solicitor from your Legal Department, responsible for this matter. As the sum is certainly in dispute you must not charge my card. If you do, I will ask my card provider to bounce the payment immediately and will place it in formal dispute as an unauthorised debit.
    I look forward to hearing from you within seven days.

    A few days later I have received a reply although any guidance would be appreciated!

    Thank you for contacting Europcar Customer Services.
    Having reviewed your comments, I can confirm that the issuing authority asked us to pay the fine charge of £40.00, so we have paid this to stop the charge from escalating and invoiced you accordingly for this amount as well as our £40.00 administration fee. The invoice amount will automatically be charged from the card issued with your booking around 14 days after the date on the invoice.
    In the event that Europcar receive a notice to owner relating to a parking or speeding violation, which has either been sent by an issuing authority or independent car parking company, we are authorised to charge an administration fee of £40.00 per request we receive. It is agreed under section 9.3 of our rental Terms and Conditions (attached) that the hirer will pay this cost; the exact amount for the administration fee is confirmed on page 45 of the conditions under Tariff Guide.
    The administration fee is charged to cover the resources used in managing each and every request that is sent, Europcar employ an entire team to deal with these types of queries. Please note that the £40.00 fee is not refundable and cannot be waived if the notice is maintained. If the council or car parking company agrees to cancel the fine, Europcar can review cancelling the administration fee; however, in order to consider this, we would require written confirmation from the authority to support the notice has been cancelled fully and no payment was required.
    If you would like to dispute the violation, then you may not be able to do so directly with the authority as we have paid the fine. As such, you may send us a copy of your written appeal (as if you were writing to the authority yourself), with any evidence you may have to support the claim. We may then send this to our Penalty Charge Department who will then forward this to the authority and appeal the fine on your behalf. Please refer to section 9.3.1.2 of our attached terms and conditions which explain this.
    If you would like to escalate the matter, you may write in to the following address and address the letter to our legal department if that is who you wish to make the complaint to:

    Thank you in advance
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 22nd May 18, 1:55 PM
    • 2,813 Posts
    • 3,507 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    So what do the terms and conditions state:? do they allow them to charge you for private invoices, or not?
    • Mb1987
    • By Mb1987 22nd May 18, 2:03 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mb1987
    Their t&cs are states in post 1, I just think they’re a bit ambiguous regarding parking notices??
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 22nd May 18, 2:39 PM
    • 1,509 Posts
    • 1,998 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    they need to study law , parking eye are not and will never be an issuing AUTHORITY


    "If you would like to dispute the violation, then you may not be able to do so directly with the authority as we have paid the fine. "

    dont gettit do they

    "If the council or car parking company agrees to cancel the fine, Europcar can review cancelling the administration "


    they still do not get it

    both council and private tickets are over , finished and dead as a parrot once paid
    Last edited by twhitehousescat; 22-05-2018 at 2:41 PM.
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • waamo
    • By waamo 22nd May 18, 3:51 PM
    • 3,614 Posts
    • 4,782 Thanks
    waamo
    I would reiterate that they have not followed the BVRLA guidelines that they have signed up to. This has left you unable to have access to an independent appeals process. Their internal system is not independent and as such you want access to their ADR.

    See what they come back with.
    This space for hire.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd May 18, 6:08 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
    • 72,587 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    PE have considered appeals and have refunded PCNs before. This 'closed account' excuse is new and flimsy.

    Email PE back and say no, I am the hirer and I am exercising my right to appeal within 28 days so I'd like my POPLA code please, and I know you do allow appeals after payment was made, and so do POPLA. Or are you denying me ADR?

    info@parkingeye.co.uk
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Mb1987
    • By Mb1987 22nd May 18, 10:48 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mb1987
    This was a copy of the template from the newbie thread sent amended to be relevant below is just a copy from the forum.

    Dear Sir/Madam
    Re: PCN No.
    I challenge this 'PCN' as lessee of the car and subsequently request all future correspondence be sent directly to myself at the address listed below:
    My street
    My Town
    My Postcode
    I am the vehicle's hirer and keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definitions under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) now it is proven that in this instance, the registered keeper is not the "keeper" (as defined under POFA), Civil Enforcement has no reason to contact Lex Autolease again regarding this PCN
    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.
    Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.
    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either offer me a POPLA code or cancel the charge.

    Yours faithfully,
    My name

    Here is the reply from PE:
    Dear Sir / Madam,
    Thank you for your correspondence in relation to the Parking Charge incurred on 17 April 2018 at 13:45, at Asda Newquay car park.
    In your letter you state that you were shopping at the store/site, but you will need to provide us with evidence/further evidence of purchases made in the store at Asda Newquay on the date stated above for us to consider the appeal further. Suitable documentary evidence in this case would be a receipt from the store/site, or a bank statement, clearly displaying the date of the transaction and the amount spent on site.
    ParkingEye have placed this charge on hold for 28 days to enable you to provide the evidence requested. If this information is not provided within 28 days, the appeal may well be rejected and a POPLA code provided.
    Alternatively, payment can be made by telephoning our offices on 0330 555 4444 or by visiting parkingeye or by posting a cheque or postal order to the address detailed below.
    If this charge has been paid and you choose to provide further evidence relating to your appeal, please forward this to us for consideration.

    I’m a little at a loss as it seems like a generic reply that answer little or nothing of the original letter to them?? Help as always will be appreciated.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd May 18, 10:52 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
    • 72,587 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    That reply isn't what you said it was.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Mb1987
    • By Mb1987 22nd May 18, 10:56 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mb1987
    This was my reply from PE whom i messaged first, I have also messaged Europcar which is shown in the posts previous as they replied a lot sooner than PE
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 22nd May 18, 10:56 PM
    • 1,509 Posts
    • 1,998 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    also you nnow have the chance to produce recepts and get it killed AND/OR go to POPLa and get it killed off

    however if POPLa decline , its and end as its been paid , so you then have to fight lex or whoever
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 22nd May 18, 10:58 PM
    • 1,509 Posts
    • 1,998 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    one might ask , after the charge had been paid , what right do they have to retain your details and info ?

    but there again , they have no info coz the hire co paid it

    and they have not got the your data from the dvla within req time frame , a poplsa loss for them?
    Last edited by twhitehousescat; 22-05-2018 at 11:04 PM.
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd May 18, 11:12 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
    • 72,587 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    This was my reply from PE whom i messaged first, I have also messaged Europcar which is shown in the posts previous as they replied a lot sooner than PE
    Originally posted by Mb1987
    I know, but the reply from PE is normal and not saying you need to contact Europcar as the case is 'closed' unless you got another repy from PE later? That reply says they will offer POPLA, as I was expecting:

    ParkingEye have placed this charge on hold for 28 days to enable you to provide the evidence requested. If this information is not provided within 28 days, the appeal may well be rejected and a POPLA code provided.
    DO NOT IMPLY WHO WAS DRIVING!!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 22-05-2018 at 11:15 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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