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  • FIRST POST
    • pjr1525
    • By pjr1525 12th Apr 18, 11:11 PM
    • 24Posts
    • 20Thanks
    pjr1525
    Incomplete vrn entered
    • #1
    • 12th Apr 18, 11:11 PM
    Incomplete vrn entered 12th Apr 18 at 11:11 PM
    Hi, this is my first post, I would appreciate some advice. I recently received a PCN through the post from a company called HX car park management stating that I had parked without a valid ticket. It supplied photos of my car entering and leaving the car park. I still had the ticket in my car confirming that I ,as an occupant of the car, had paid and not overstayed so I sent a photo of the ticket to their appeals department. They sent me an email the next day refusing my appeal saying that I had not completed the vrn and this was a breach of contract and I must pay 60 or100. I ,as an occupant of the car, had entered the first four digits of the vrn as some car parks that I have used previously required. This information positively identified the ticket related to the car on which it was displayed. In my opinion I am being charged this excessive amount for what amounts to no more than a typing error. Both myself and my wife are oaps and this represent a significant part of our pensions. I would appreciate any advice. Many thanks
    Last edited by pjr1525; 18-04-2018 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Clarification that I was no the driver
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Apr 18, 11:16 PM
    • 18,845 Posts
    • 23,841 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 12th Apr 18, 11:16 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Apr 18, 11:16 PM
    as this is an IPC member you need to read up on those details in the NEWBIES faq sticky thread near the top of this forum

    HX have 6 years to try a court claim, in civil court near you, so keep all paperwork for the next 6 years, in case they do

    as they rejected your appeal, you are now in IGNORE mode, so come back if you receive an LBC or an MCOL in the post

    ignore the debt collector letters

    in future, study the payment machine requirements more closely, as these companies like to trip people up with their small print and attention to detail

    this is a common mistake , so try to avoid it in future
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Apr 18, 9:24 AM
    • 9,968 Posts
    • 9,765 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 13th Apr 18, 9:24 AM
    • #3
    • 13th Apr 18, 9:24 AM
    As you say, this is a trifle, and the Law does not concern itself with trifles.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_minimis

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • pjr1525
    • By pjr1525 13th Apr 18, 9:07 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    pjr1525
    • #4
    • 13th Apr 18, 9:07 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Apr 18, 9:07 PM
    Many thanks for those replies.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Apr 18, 9:13 PM
    • 60,111 Posts
    • 73,243 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 13th Apr 18, 9:13 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Apr 18, 9:13 PM
    Same as all other IPC firm threads.

    No appeal will work, it is considered a broken system/biased (even Parliament knows that).

    Complain to your MP. Make sure they hear your wrath about this industry of 'rogues and bloodsuckers' (Hansard 2.2.18).

    Come back if they try a small claim using Gladstones. You can read lots of threads like that by searching HX Gladstones claim and see how they are won!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • pjr1525
    • By pjr1525 16th Apr 18, 8:12 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    pjr1525
    • #6
    • 16th Apr 18, 8:12 PM
    • #6
    • 16th Apr 18, 8:12 PM
    I have not said that I was the driver at the time I am only the registered keeper. In their PCN they don't identify the vehicle only a vrn, They only sent photos of the car when it entered the car park and when it left and do not claim that the car was parked for the period in between which they stated in minutes, they also did not say that no money was paid in. I believe that if only one of the requirements in the POFA is missed ( not identifying the car ) then they cannot pursue me as the keeper, only the driver if known. I would appreciate any advice. Many thanks
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 16th Apr 18, 8:16 PM
    • 36,840 Posts
    • 20,979 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #7
    • 16th Apr 18, 8:16 PM
    • #7
    • 16th Apr 18, 8:16 PM
    Save all this until such time as they take court action.

    As advised in #2, wait and see if they do attempt a court claim.

    They have 6 years to start legal action against you

    If you want to do something now complain to your mp as advised in #5
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th Apr 18, 8:35 PM
    • 8,671 Posts
    • 8,584 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #8
    • 16th Apr 18, 8:35 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Apr 18, 8:35 PM
    In their PCN they don't identify the vehicle only a vrn.
    Originally posted by pjr1525
    I think you'll find that quoting a VRN does, quite uniquely, identify the vehicle.
    .
    • pjr1525
    • By pjr1525 17th Apr 18, 7:52 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    pjr1525
    • #9
    • 17th Apr 18, 7:52 AM
    • #9
    • 17th Apr 18, 7:52 AM
    I have already sent a letter to my MP. Being retired I have a lot of time on my hands and am prepared to take this all the way to court. There is such a lot of good knowledge and advice out there which decent people give freely.
    Would there be any point in sending a letter to the appeals dept of the company involved, informing them that I intend to defend this charge, implying it would be a waste of their money, because there is a miriad of free advice and help available on how to win any court case involving unfair parking charges? And should I enclose a copy of the letter that I sent to my MP. !!!! Turpin at lease had the decency to wear a mask!
    Last edited by pjr1525; 17-04-2018 at 1:35 PM. Reason: Spelling error
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 17th Apr 18, 8:01 AM
    • 3,115 Posts
    • 3,834 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    They wont even read it. If it doesnt contain a cheque, they could care less.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Apr 18, 12:29 PM
    • 60,111 Posts
    • 73,243 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Do watch Watchdog tomorrow night:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/parking-prankster-on-watchdog.html

    Alex the Parking Prankster is on it, in an expose about parking firms dodgy practices.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • pjr1525
    • By pjr1525 17th Apr 18, 1:33 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    pjr1525
    I'm warming to this now, knowing they can't arrest, take my house or get a CCJ against me without a court adjudication.
    Just a thought, if they say the parking ticket was invalid because the full vrn was not entered correctly, does that mean there was no contract entered into, and they or the land owner can only pursue the keeper for trespass? Again, would appreciate advice.
    Last edited by pjr1525; 17-04-2018 at 1:38 PM. Reason: Spelling error
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 17th Apr 18, 1:48 PM
    • 3,115 Posts
    • 3,834 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    No it doesnt mean that. they will claim you agreed to the contract and didnt fulfill all terms - which is what theyre already saying. It makes no difference.

    They cannot pursue the keeper for trespass, as that is outside of what POFA allows. POFA lets them go for PARKING charges, nothing else.

    Any error on a ticket is de minimis .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Apr 18, 2:19 PM
    • 60,111 Posts
    • 73,243 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    if they say the parking ticket was invalid because the full vrn was not entered correctly, does that mean there was no contract entered into,
    They will try, but no, there was a contract made, an offer/acceptance happened and this was it:
    I had entered the first four digits of the vrn as some car parks that I have used previously required. This information positively identified the ticket related to the car on which it was displayed.
    You can argue that to penalise you for entering the first 4 digits - which did uniquely identify your car - is not saved by the fact-specific (and completely different) Beavis case. In fact this is just the sort of non-commercially justified penalty that the Supreme Court had in mind when they discussed the fact the Lord Dunedin's 4 tests for a penalty had application in most ordinary, transactional (paying a fee/tariff) cases.

    You can also argue that by accepting a 4 digit VRN that was not in the car park, their systems are set to form an 'alternative contract'.

    There is also the fact the machines are set to allow and profit from consumer error, which is unfair under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and the CPUTRs 2008, and easily avoidable by better data handling processes and checks in the system. And they are responsible for that.

    4 digits is in 99% of cases, not a full VRN so the machine should be set to prevent minor errors and flash a reminder 'are you sure? We need you to enter the whole VRN, press Y or N' or 'clear' to start again and enter the full VRN to avoid a parking charge of 100.'
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 17-04-2018 at 2:23 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • pjr1525
    • By pjr1525 17th Apr 18, 4:02 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    pjr1525
    This is fascinating stuff. It's quite early in this episode, one week, so don't know if they will pursue the matter. Ordinarily I would pay (if guilty) for a quiet life, but I feel so angry that they want 100 from me , even after I provided proof that I ,as an occupant of the car, had, fairly, paid in full for the service. Surely to any right minded person, including Judges, that should be the end of the matter. I appreciate that I am being naive for believing that. As previously mentioned, I intend to defend this unfair charge right to the end. Many thanks.
    Last edited by pjr1525; 18-04-2018 at 11:26 AM.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 17th Apr 18, 5:34 PM
    • 36,840 Posts
    • 20,979 Thanks
    Quentin
    You say you are appealing this as keeper (#6)

    Throughout here you are advised never to reveal who was driving.

    You need to edit your posts #1 & #15 to remove details of who was driving.

    The Ppcs monitor this forum and can use your posts against you

    If you are identifyable from your forum name then ask MSE to change it to something completely anonymous
    Last edited by Quentin; 17-04-2018 at 6:20 PM.
    • pjr1525
    • By pjr1525 17th Apr 18, 6:07 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    pjr1525
    Many thanks Quentin, I'm done with appealing now, because the information on this and other forums suggests that the game is not straight. I have never identified the driver nor intend to, because they are of a very nervous disposition, either in the initial in house appeal or in this forum. The PCN was a notice to keeper.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Apr 18, 6:16 PM
    • 18,845 Posts
    • 23,841 Thanks
    Redx
    post #1 IMPLIES that you were the driver, but it seems you were merely an occupant of the vehicle who used the machine and are the KEEPER

    it helps in these matters if you only use the following to describe events

    the DRIVER

    the KEEPER

    we consider that the words "ME , MYSELF & I" are banned and not to be used
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 17th Apr 18, 6:20 PM
    • 36,840 Posts
    • 20,979 Thanks
    Quentin
    I have never identified the driver .
    Originally posted by pjr1525

    Check again!
    • pjr1525
    • By pjr1525 18th Apr 18, 11:29 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    pjr1525
    Many thanks, checked again and amended to say I was an occupant of the car.
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