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  • FIRST POST
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 6th Feb 18, 10:29 PM
    • 137Posts
    • 17Thanks
    palasmy
    Burnt clutch - hire vehicle
    • #1
    • 6th Feb 18, 10:29 PM
    Burnt clutch - hire vehicle 6th Feb 18 at 10:29 PM
    Hi

    I had recently rented a Talento (10 seater) from Green motion and I'm now being charged 400 + 2200 pounds for a windscreen damage and a burnt clutch.

    Basically, I rented the vehicle on a friday night from Gatwick, the vehicle was shown as fit for renting with no issues in the standard forms that they generate for their fleet when they rent them out. But they said since it was dark to closely examine anything in detail if I find any significant damage, I should be reporting it the next day before 10 am. I drove the vehicle from Gatwick to Tonbridge (32 miles), admittedly there wasn't any smell in the vehicle at that time. The next day morning I again drove the vehicle back to Crawley (nearly same distance), but on the way back there was a strong smell in the vehicle. Dismissing it for some outside roadworks (happening at that time), managed to return to tonbridge. However, that afternoon when I took the vehicle out the smell was again there, which is when I felt there was something not right. Then it was reported to the Assistance people, the guys after doing some checks and test drives commented it definitely smells like clutch but there appears to be no issues with the mechanics as it drives fine.
    However, I insisted for a replacement vehicle and green motion after checking the reports from the roadside assistance company agreed to replace it with an another talento that same night.
    When I was there to pick up my replacement vehicle, the people on duty initially said the only Talento that they had, had a windscreen damage to it and so it can't be rented out. But then after few minutes, they came back to me and said actually the damaged vehicle was already sent out to garage and the vehicle they had was fit for renting. In a desperate need for vehicle it never struck me to double check the windscreen at that hour. But then when I returned the vehicle on Monday night, the guy who checked the vehicle claimed that the windscreen has been damaged during my renting. And it was so obvious that the way he checked that spot seemed so artificial, one the damage was in a place that even a normal check wouldn't have shown it as it was right beneath the wiper on the black band of the windscreen almost at the meeting point with the bonnet and two, his body language was so obvious that he was going to find something. Apparently, it turns out that he was the person to check this vehicle after it was returned from previous hire. So, the possibility that he could have missed this the last time and now to save himself from the trouble tries to put it on my head.

    I'm now completely lost with amount that I have been asked to pay and also don't know how to dispute this claim as I genuinely feel both the damages aren't due to me. I have had a UK license for 10 years and strongly feel that the clutch was probably already worn out and I was really unlucky that it burnt out during my hire.

    And the windscreen damage clearly appears like a preplanned event given the conversations I had during the vehicle replacement time.

    Greenmotion have sent me the following mail about the clutch and have already charged me for the windscreen.

    Would really appreciate people's suggestions and comments on this issue and on how I could go about this whole incident.

    "Thank you for your emails. Firstly please accept my apologies for the delay in coming back to you. The reason for this was as diuscussed on the phone previously a few parts needed for the repairs were on back order. Now that the repairs have been completed we are able to submit our final outlay to you for the clutch that was burnt whilst in your possession.

    Whilst I appreciate charging for items such as a clutch replacement is far from an ideal way to end of hire, we do on occasions need to do this. In order to avoid any non-expert opinion, I have asked a number of vehicle technicians for their view. You can obviously do the same. If a clutch was to fail due to general wear and tear, both sides of the clutch plate would wear away at the same or a similar rate. As you can see from the attachments this is not the case.

    Once again, while I do appreciate that this is not an easy thing to accept, it is a reasonably simple thing for us to prove. In the opinion of the repair agents and other people that we have spoken to, the speed at which the failure occurred and the nature of the wear to the clutch parts suggests damage that occurred swiftly (i.e. not over thousands of miles) and as a result of the user at the time. Therefore based on this opinion, we are looking to you for the costs incurred for the damage to the clutch.

    In order to make payment please go to www.glir.co.uk. The amount due is shown below. You also have the invoice fully declaring the main costs that we incurred. I hope this helps and I look forward to hearing from you shortly.
    "

    I have the photos of the clutch that green motion has sent me but I couldn't attach it here, but if anyone has such technical / mechanical expertise on this then please let me know I can email them to you for reference.

    Really sad and totally lost...

    Thanks all for your help
    P
Page 1
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 7th Feb 18, 5:54 AM
    • 13,533 Posts
    • 8,596 Thanks
    arcon5
    • #2
    • 7th Feb 18, 5:54 AM
    • #2
    • 7th Feb 18, 5:54 AM
    What was your excess?

    If have thought this would limit damages for the hire tbh.

    You got anything in writing about the condition of the second vehicle?
    Last edited by arcon5; 07-02-2018 at 5:56 AM.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 7th Feb 18, 6:14 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    • #3
    • 7th Feb 18, 6:14 AM
    • #3
    • 7th Feb 18, 6:14 AM
    What was your excess?

    If have thought this would limit damages for the hire tbh.

    You got anything in writing about the condition of the second vehicle?
    Originally posted by arcon5

    I have a icarhire insurance policy but not sure what are the limitations in that. Forgive me for my lack of knowledge, is this excess determined by the rental company? the hire insurance doesn't seem to say any details about excess amount. It says it covers upto 6000 for one incident..

    "SECTION 4 EXCESS INSURANCE
    What is insured What is not insured
    We will pay up to 6,000 for any single incident or 6,000 for a
    series of incidents during any single Vehicle Rental Agreement for
    the reimbursement of the Excess applied by the Rental Company
    caused by accidental damage to the Rental Vehicle including any
    caused by fire, theft or vandalism, as well as for any repair costs
    that the Rental Company charges You or for payments that You
    are responsible for under the terms of Your Vehicle Rental
    Agreement following accidental damage to windscreens, tyres,
    roof and under-carriage.
    We will pay up to 1,000 for any rental fees charged by the
    Rental Company for which You are liable during a period for
    which the Rental Vehicle is unable to be used by You and for any
    related towing costs including any additional costs incurred by
    You arising from the breakdown of the Rental Vehicle for You to
    travel home or to Your destination, as long as those fees or costs
    "

    All i was given was a form that has a sketch of the vehicle where they normally mark for any existing damages etc..

    Thanks
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 7th Feb 18, 6:46 AM
    • 13,533 Posts
    • 8,596 Thanks
    arcon5
    • #4
    • 7th Feb 18, 6:46 AM
    • #4
    • 7th Feb 18, 6:46 AM
    The excess will be on the rental agreement. The icarhire is an excess insurance. So in the case case of incident the hire company charge you costs up to the value of the excess and your excess insurer reimburse you
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 7th Feb 18, 6:51 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    • #5
    • 7th Feb 18, 6:51 AM
    • #5
    • 7th Feb 18, 6:51 AM
    Thanks arcon5 I will check the agreement, just to know what are the norms for an excess. How is it defined, by the size of the vehicle?

    In this case, they have simply raised an invoice showing the price and VAT for the clutch. And for the windscreen there wasn't any invoice either they have already charged my card for it!
    • facade
    • By facade 7th Feb 18, 8:13 AM
    • 3,142 Posts
    • 1,653 Thanks
    facade
    • #6
    • 7th Feb 18, 8:13 AM
    • #6
    • 7th Feb 18, 8:13 AM
    Hi

    If a clutch was to fail due to general wear and tear, both sides of the clutch plate would wear away at the same or a similar rate. As you can see from the attachments this is not the case.
    Originally posted by palasmy
    Which suggests that it is a fault within the clutch- a warranty issue, rather than wear & tear caused by you.

    Maybe it is worth seeking an independent expert's opinion
    Last edited by facade; 07-02-2018 at 8:17 AM.
    I want to go back to The Olden Days, when every single thing that I can think of was better.....

    (except air quality and Medical Science )
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 7th Feb 18, 10:23 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    • #7
    • 7th Feb 18, 10:23 AM
    • #7
    • 7th Feb 18, 10:23 AM
    Which suggests that it is a fault within the clutch- a warranty issue, rather than wear & tear caused by you.

    Maybe it is worth seeking an independent expert's opinion
    Originally posted by facade
    Thanks facade.
    Which probably wuld help but then should i arrange for an expert from the vehicle company to go and inspect it in the place where it is now. They already claim to have done this but best to get it done for my own satisfaction. As u say the vehicle is 2017 registered so could be a manufacturing defect or at least cicered by warranty or something...
    • facade
    • By facade 7th Feb 18, 10:51 AM
    • 3,142 Posts
    • 1,653 Thanks
    facade
    • #8
    • 7th Feb 18, 10:51 AM
    • #8
    • 7th Feb 18, 10:51 AM
    Actually, thinking about it, if they just give your expert the friction plate and the pressure plate (the car will be reassembled and earning by now), the friction plate is burnt on the pressure plate side, and the pressure plate is blue, with no broken springs, the opinion will likely be abuse. (I was thinking it could be stuck on the splines, but there won't be any splines to see.

    That would mean someone has been driving it like a hire car (the fastest cars in the World according to Clarkson), and it is your bad luck that it finally gave out in your care, when it could have been any of the previous hirers.

    Strikes me as wrong making you pay, rather like sending you out with 1.65 mm of tyre tread, and then billing you for new tyres because they are below 1.6mm when you return it.
    I want to go back to The Olden Days, when every single thing that I can think of was better.....

    (except air quality and Medical Science )
    • irc
    • By irc 7th Feb 18, 12:24 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    irc
    • #9
    • 7th Feb 18, 12:24 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Feb 18, 12:24 PM
    First step check if your separate insurance covers this. If it does get this in writing before paying Green Motion anything. Then leave it to them. That is why you pay them

    If not, get an engineer to give an opinion. Assuming it supports the view that this is either wear and tear or misuse which could have happened any time before your hire then don't pay.

    Write them a letter saying you are not liable. Enclose a copy of your report. Thereafter ignore anything else short of a letter before claim taking you to court.

    I am not a lawyer but my understanding is that a claim of this size would go to the small claims court. In the small claims you are not liable for their legal costs. Worst case you would end up going to a hearing at your local court. Either a win and pay nothing or lose and pay the 2200 cost. (assuming the Hire Co produced evidence that this was the cost).
    • Retrogamer
    • By Retrogamer 7th Feb 18, 12:32 PM
    • 3,796 Posts
    • 3,781 Thanks
    Retrogamer
    The clutch damage could have been done at any point in the car's history and it's just came to light when you've been driving it on hire.

    Ask them if they remove the gearbox and inspect the clutch after every time the car is hired
    The answer will obviously be no, so you can then ask how they determined that all that clutch wear was caused by you and not a previous driver.
    After all if a previous driver had caused some accelerated clutch wear then it's going to fail at some point even if driven normally.

    I wouldn't pay the clutch fee at all.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 7th Feb 18, 3:05 PM
    • 2,837 Posts
    • 2,054 Thanks
    Tarambor
    It'd be interesting to take the clutch issue to court. I'd love for a hire company to explain how they can say for certain that a specific driver caused it. Even the worst driver in the world would have to try really hard to kill a clutch in 32 miles.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 7th Feb 18, 3:17 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Thanks all for those valuable comments. Can someone help me with posting the pics od the clutch as they claim it to show that its very obvious that it occurred only during my possession.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 7th Feb 18, 3:36 PM
    • 4,284 Posts
    • 4,330 Thanks
    DoaM
    Upload to a file hosting site and then post links to the images in a forum reply. (Please don't try to embed actual images as they can break the forum for some people if the images are large).
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 7th Feb 18, 8:56 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Hi

    Please find below the links for the photos showing the clutch of the vehicle as sent by green motion. Their argument is the damage was only on one side only which suggests that this can happen in short period of time and so it was due to my abuse...

    http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/723817/2018-02-01-PHOTO-00000103.jpg

    http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/723816/2018-02-01-PHOTO-00000102.jpg
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 7th Feb 18, 8:59 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    The clutch damage could have been done at any point in the car's history and it's just came to light when you've been driving it on hire.

    Ask them if they remove the gearbox and inspect the clutch after every time the car is hired
    The answer will obviously be no, so you can then ask how they determined that all that clutch wear was caused by you and not a previous driver.
    After all if a previous driver had caused some accelerated clutch wear then it's going to fail at some point even if driven normally.

    I wouldn't pay the clutch fee at all.
    Originally posted by Retrogamer
    Thanks Retrogamer, a very valid point in deed and this is how I plan to start my dispute with. Asking them to provide me with the evidence that the clutch was perfectly ok when they rented the vehicle out to me.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 7th Feb 18, 9:02 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    First step check if your separate insurance covers this. If it does get this in writing before paying Green Motion anything. Then leave it to them. That is why you pay them

    If not, get an engineer to give an opinion. Assuming it supports the view that this is either wear and tear or misuse which could have happened any time before your hire then don't pay.

    Write them a letter saying you are not liable. Enclose a copy of your report. Thereafter ignore anything else short of a letter before claim taking you to court.

    I am not a lawyer but my understanding is that a claim of this size would go to the small claims court. In the small claims you are not liable for their legal costs. Worst case you would end up going to a hearing at your local court. Either a win and pay nothing or lose and pay the 2200 cost. (assuming the Hire Co produced evidence that this was the cost).
    Originally posted by irc
    Thanks irc. Sounds like a good plan to follow step by step. Any suggestions or ideas to hire a engineer. Any specific place or can I just request any mechanic from any garage to do it for me for a price.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 7th Feb 18, 9:10 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    The excess will be on the rental agreement. The icarhire is an excess insurance. So in the case case of incident the hire company charge you costs up to the value of the excess and your excess insurer reimburse you
    Originally posted by arcon5
    The rental agreement says the vehicle excess is 2495 pounds and excludes glass, wheels, tyres, the roof and the underneath. Does it mean the windscreen wouldn't be covered by the insurance?
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 7th Feb 18, 9:27 PM
    • 13,533 Posts
    • 8,596 Thanks
    arcon5
    The rental agreement says the vehicle excess is 2495 pounds and excludes glass, wheels, tyres, the roof and the underneath. Does it mean the windscreen wouldn't be covered by the insurance?
    Originally posted by palasmy
    Your excess insurance and rental agreement are two separate things.

    That's a big excess!

    I'd contact your excess insurer about it as ultimately they would be reimbursing you. Can't see them liking this situation so they may agree to get involved.

    One things for sure though I wouldn't be paying it. Id let them chase me through the courts. It doesn't sound like you've damaged it to me, sounds like their vehicle developed a fault.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 8th Feb 18, 5:35 AM
    • 2,837 Posts
    • 2,054 Thanks
    Tarambor
    I've looked at the picture. The clutch has been slipping but the clutch isn't knackered at all. If it was worn to the point of being unusable due to the clutch being faulty then there wouldn't be those grooves in the friction plate, the rivets wouldn't be as sunk down as they are and there wouldn't be those flecks all over the friction material. I would personally say the damage is down to the clutch cable not being adjusted properly.

    I really would let this one go to court.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 8th Feb 18, 5:39 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Your excess insurance and rental agreement are two separate things.

    That's a big excess!

    I'd contact your excess insurer about it as ultimately they would be reimbursing you. Can't see them liking this situation so they may agree to get involved.

    One things for sure though I wouldn't be paying it. Id let them chase me through the courts. It doesn't sound like you've damaged it to me, sounds like their vehicle developed a fault.
    Originally posted by arcon5
    Ok. are there anything in particular I need to request from green motion that will help my communication with the excess insurance provider? theey have given me invoice for the clutch and nothing for the windscreen although they have already charged.

    I also have few email exchanges. Also is it best to keep the communication with green motion in emails from now on so that there is a record for everything. Their responses are very slow though!!
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