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  • FIRST POST
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 1st Feb 18, 8:10 PM
    • 29Posts
    • 9Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Redundancy Dismissal due to Health and Safety
    • #1
    • 1st Feb 18, 8:10 PM
    Redundancy Dismissal due to Health and Safety 1st Feb 18 at 8:10 PM
    Hello,

    I am representing myself at a tribunal later in the year and I was wondering if someone could help me?

    I believe I was dismissed by redundancy due to raising health and safety issues. Without getting into whether I will win my case or not does anybody know how I should be valuing my case?

    At first I believed I could only be compensated for actual losses such as the basic award etc but as this is a health and safety case could I be entitled to compensation on top of this?

    I have a feeling I have severely under valued my case?

    Any advice welcome and thank you in advance.
Page 2
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 15th Feb 18, 3:53 PM
    • 4,416 Posts
    • 4,270 Thanks
    Comms69
    Hi All,

    I can be a little more open and honest now I think. I didn't want to give too much about my case away so close to my tribunal and was looking for last minute panic advice. Sorry.

    I have attended my tribunal this week. It went well in some areas and not as expected in others. It was certainly an eye opener and i'm glad its over.

    I have been told that I can expect a decision from the judge in the post within 28 days.

    Win or lose I will let you all know how it went for your own curiosity, if you have any.

    Thank you again for your responses and advice.
    Originally posted by abcdef1234
    Can you elaborate on this? In essence did what member say would happen, happen?
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 15th Feb 18, 4:49 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Thanks,

    If you mean about my case itself and whether the advice received by yourselves was any good then I would say it was. I could see that the judge was carefully trying to deliberate:

    1. If suffering detriment by a reduction in scoring for my redundancy could qualify as a legitimate complaint with respect to the ERA 1996 (protection from suffering detriment in employment). Thanks Mariefab for info.

    2. Whether my complaint qualified as a protected disclosure at all.

    3. Whether I had been unfairly dismissed for bringing to my employers attention, by reasonable means, circumstances connected with my work which I reasonably believed were harmful or potentially harmful to health or safety.

    4. Inconsistent time reference periods were used when carrying out scoring.

    5. Was my scoring fair and objectively applied without the HSE issues raised, would it have been different without my HSE issues.

    6. One of the scorers evidence wasn't presented well at all and I felt that I had exposed some lies on their doing. Even their solicitor said something about it would be Naive of them to say the evidence was strong (not quoting).

    7. Whether a fair appeals process used.

    8. If the scoring from the previous year had any reason to change.

    The points above seem to me, will be the points that will be used to determine the outcome.

    I'm not feeling great about the outcome. I know people can feel their case is strong with emotions involved etc so I'm having the mentality that I'll probably lose. In my mind its 50/50 which probably means its 30/70.

    The next step up from that is that I may have put enough evidence forward to suggest one of my scores was low and needed to be corrected but it would not have been enough to survive redundancy (I forgot my revised score included one absence I had). So I needed 2 points. (polkey reduction maybe)

    The next step up would be, did I put enough forward for the 2 points. (no polkey reduction).

    I don't believe I had a strong enough argument to go any further than 2 points.

    The next step would be the detriment issues which to be honest I wouldn't have a clue how the judge deal with that. Automatically unfair, Detriment, etc.

    I believe there is a mix bag of outcomes.

    I honestly didn't think it would get this far but my ex employer didn't engage with ACAS so I knew I was going to have see it through to the end.

    If you want more specific answers just ask. I'm not naming and shaming on here but it will be made public as i've seen it through, correct?

    Their solicitor basically argued what Sangie and Martin said about 12 months passing, scores go higher for others, mine could stay the same or even be lowered etc.

    Also someone mentioned just because I wasn't disciplined didn't prove this. I actually had this turned back on me in that the next step in dealing with the issue should have been to raise a grievance if I felt my concerns were not addressed.

    So a lot going on.
    Last edited by abcdef1234; 18-02-2018 at 5:39 PM.
    • Masomnia
    • By Masomnia 15th Feb 18, 8:29 PM
    • 17,343 Posts
    • 38,526 Thanks
    Masomnia
    Interesting. Well, win or lose you've done what you can.

    I'm sure you're right that you raising the complaints marked you out in their minds as a trouble maker and they wanted you out. It's persuading a judge of that I suppose! Let us know how you get on.
    I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled. - P.G. Wodehouse
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 20th Mar 18, 10:46 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Reserved Judgement not upheld.
    Well I lost my case,

    To say im disappointed is an understatement. From my first early read I feel as though I never had a chance. Lie after Lie exposed in court and one manager not even turning up yet it still swings in their favour. I wish I had had the money to be represented. That way I would not have been asking the what if questions later. The respondent and their EEF solicitor produced evidence 5 mins before I went in on the second day so didnt offer full disclosure. It threw me off, the judge suggested I speak with my legal rep but I didnt have one.

    Im very disappointed that I dont seem to be offered any explanation as to whether they believed one of my managers lies when it became quite evident he was lying. I would have thought a judge would have explained his BS, particularly when I strongly denied them in my closing submissions and made him look a fool during Cross Examination.

    It seems one manager reducing your average score for raising H&S issues in an e-mail does not count as suffering detriment if the 2 other scorers are telling the truth. It doesnt matter that your scores were dragged down by a manager with ill feeling towards employees who raise legitimate protected disclosures. In other words, two people score 20 truthfully and one person scores 10 untruthfully means I deserve 15.

    I am bitter at the moment having only received the response a few hours ago and needing a few days to digest this but its hard when you know how corrupt my ex company has acted just to get the result they want.

    I want to appeal. There is no mention of the things I asked to be considered but Im thinking of letting it go for my own sanity. If I do appeal could I do this on the cheap with a solicitor does anyone know? Can I pay in installments to Solicitors?

    Im furious at the lies that have been attached to my name. I cant quite believe how a company like them can back up managers who do this. Absolutely disgusting. If the judge had even said you would not have survived redundancy but one of your managers has defamated your character and we are awarding you a pound I would have been happy but instead I got legal waffle. Everything I say needs to be beyond reasonable doubt. Everything the respondents say can have a little truth fluffed up with a few legal terms and a couple words of the days here and there and its classed as well-founded. If you have money and a lack to do the right thing, it just goes to show in my eyes, that justice does have a price.

    Thanks again to all that helped me.
    Last edited by abcdef1234; 09-06-2018 at 6:50 PM.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 21st Mar 18, 6:18 PM
    • 11,017 Posts
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    lincroft1710
    There is no point in "doing it on the cheap". If you want proper legal advice, you have to pay for it. A good employment solicitor could tell you if you had a case for an appeal or not. Appealing a Tribunal decision is not easy, it has to be based on fact and a knowledge of the relevant legislation and procedure not opinion (possibly biased).
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 21st Mar 18, 9:36 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Thanks for that, any ball park figures? just to maybe see whether its worth it or not.

    I have had 24 hours to think about it now. Whilst i'm still annoyed that the judge took everything my ex employer said as the truth even when she said she would apply a weighting to my managers statements who never bothered show up as she said she didnt want to go. I have to get real and look at letting this go or not.

    Did I make a mistake in that I should have got a witness order for the witness to attend?

    The judge took everything the 3 managers said as the truth and made no reference to any weighting. The judge also has completely neglected to raise in her judgement what i thought was my most critical failing by my ex employer with respect to law. I brought up regarding how my scoring was not objectively applied for an objective category and rather just plucked out of thin air. The judge does not state the evidence I submitted nor responds to what i brought up in court.

    I just cant let this go in my head at the moment.

    If anyone has been accused of something they never did they will know exactly how this feels.

    If i had got up and said the things one man said I would have been thrown out for how groundless his statements were and how he completely crumbled under cross examination.

    I even said to one of the scorers do you think you should have scored me 5 points higher then with the evidence in front of you and he said yes looking back now I do. Judge decides not to bother to mention it.
    Last edited by abcdef1234; 22-03-2018 at 8:07 AM.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 22nd Mar 18, 4:29 PM
    • 11,017 Posts
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    lincroft1710
    I'm going to be a little bit blunt, so will apologise in advance.

    I have a great deal of tribunal experience, albeit not employment (only attended one as moral support for the claimant). It is very easy for an unrepresented party to rely on what they see as relevant and pertinent, when in actuality it is quite the reverse. Body language and behaviour can also influence the outcome (even if they shouldn't). There is also credibility combined with strength of the evidence, which probably should be the most important consideration.

    So in all honesty, how do you think your presentation and case strength would have appeared to someone in the "public gallery"? If you considered your employers to have been less than honest in their presentation, why do you think the judge believed them?

    If you think the judge failed in her duty, you may want to appeal. But it would be a brave man who tried to follow this through.

    If (and it would be a big IF) you won an appeal, what would you actually gain financially. Remember that the downside of winning an employment tribunal could mean you would be seen as a possible troublemaker and severely limit your chances of future employment (which again shouldn't happen, but it does).

    I have no idea of actual solicitor's costs, but a figure of 200 an hour is often quoted on these boards.
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 22nd Mar 18, 9:27 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Thanks that's great advice.

    I have currently been quoted 250 an hour twice with a free 15 minute consultation over the phone to establish rough facts of the case.

    At this moment in time i'm thinking of paying for the hour and prepping in advance questions I can try and rattle through and maybe get some answers and then determine where go from there.
    The big one for me is how my ex manager cannot show up and not have to answer to the case. I would love to know if anyone knows of anyway I could get her to have to stand in court and be held accountable for her lies or whether I have missed the opportunity. I thought I could only order my witnesses attend, If anybody knows if I was wrong I would be very grateful for info?

    At first am going to look at the judge reconsidering points of law and if that fails i want to appeal.

    i had a judge sitting alone too. I read something yesterday about it not being in the interest of justice to deny extra panel members to make judgements more fair if they feel their case required it. Again, I'm playing the guessing game.

    I have roughly 10 days to decide.

    I'm not going to just go for it I will take advice but have to be aware if they are going to try and say I have a case to get more hours out of me.

    I have not had a cost order attached to the case could this be reversed if I continue with the appeal?

    I already have a job too which i see myself in for life. My manager is great and I was open and honest with him about my case. I told him what had happened and he also told me not worry as he himself has once had to go to a tribunal over an ex company of his. Yes there may come a time when I move on due to unforeseen circumstances such as redundancy etc but I know my work ethic and ability will always get me a job when connections I have made throughout my career tell a different story to my dishonest ex-managers.
    Last edited by abcdef1234; 23-03-2018 at 9:33 AM.
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 25th Mar 18, 6:16 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Hi again,

    If anybody could help with the questions raised in my previous comments I would very much appreciate it.

    1. The big one for me is how my ex manager cannot show up and not have to answer to the case. I would love to know if anyone knows of anyway I could get her to have to stand in court and be held accountable for her lies or whether I have missed the opportunity. I thought I could only order my witnesses attend, If anybody knows if I was wrong I would be very grateful for info? (Where she has lied is what specifically concerns me and why the employment judge makes no mention of it during my judgement. It's like all my strongest points I raised in my tribunal have not been considered at all on my written judgement and when I say not considered I mean not there at all, no mention of what I believed was critical evidence. These are the points I am going to request the judge reconsider and ask to include them in writing on the judgement).

    2. I have not had a cost order attached to the case could this be reversed if I continue with the appeal?

    Thank you.
    Last edited by abcdef1234; 25-03-2018 at 6:26 PM.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 26th Mar 18, 3:29 PM
    • 11,017 Posts
    • 9,350 Thanks
    lincroft1710
    There is no point in "doing it on the cheap". If you want proper legal advice, you have to pay for it. A good employment solicitor could tell you if you had a case for an appeal or not.
    Originally posted by lincroft1710
    I forgot to add :

    "and a poor one could string you along trying to persuade you had a good case for an appeal, when you hadn't"
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 27th Mar 18, 12:28 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Thanks lincroft,

    I suspected that. I've been having a think and a solicitor is going to charge me 250 an hour to re-word and put my point into legal terms that I wish to be reconsidered/appealed. The financial risk for me is something I need to weigh up this week.

    The judge has stated what law has been used to determine the outcome of the case so it is simply there for me to highlight the areas for reconsideration and ask for my evidence to be included on the judgement. I'm going to state what finding of facts during the tribunal were important and to which law it relates to. Hopefully this will will take a complex case and make it as simplistic as possible. Preferably one word answers. e.g. If the answer to ........ is yes? then it needs to be considered that ...... law has been broken.

    My two main areas with strong supporting evidence have been completely left out so i'm going to put these forward once more for reconsideration. If that fails my last and final step is to appeal. I know someone has said this would be brave to do but my feelings are that I have come this far and I feel so strong that there has been an error in judgment/justice so I will fight till the end.

    Well, I think i've lost interest from forum members now so I will let you know the outcome when it arrives. Win or lose, having this here may help someone in the future.
    Last edited by abcdef1234; 27-03-2018 at 12:31 AM.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 27th Mar 18, 4:03 PM
    • 11,017 Posts
    • 9,350 Thanks
    lincroft1710
    If you win the appeal, what are you expecting to get in monetary terms?
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 27th Mar 18, 9:25 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    My Schedule of loss was for 12.5k
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 28th Mar 18, 7:15 PM
    • 11,017 Posts
    • 9,350 Thanks
    lincroft1710
    I presume this figure can be quantified.
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 28th Mar 18, 9:24 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Yes,

    Salary loss due to period of unemployment at maximum of 479 per week.

    Salary drop in new job.

    Redundancy pay and PILON taken off.

    4 months of benefits taken off.

    I went really low to be honest, didn't include my day rate which I got for every day day I worked which equated to a minimum of 13k extra per annum in the last 3 years and I also didnt include pension, xmas bonus (5% salary), benefits etc.
    • Masomnia
    • By Masomnia 29th Mar 18, 7:14 PM
    • 17,343 Posts
    • 38,526 Thanks
    Masomnia
    As you named your employer earlier I went to have a look to see if the decision had been published yet but it doesn't seem to have.

    Really there's only so far that randomers on the internet can take you with something like this.

    It sounds like the judge has taken the view that if even you had not made the complaint you would have been made redundant anyway, so your dismissal from the company was ultimately fair.

    The only way I can see you getting anywhere is to argue that the judge should have found you were dismissed because of your complaint, and the fact that you would have been made redundant anyway was not relevant. TBH I'm not 100% sure where you would stand with that. And even if you did win on that basis, if the court believes you would have been made redundant anyway I think it's likely your award would be reduced.

    You need professional advice.
    I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled. - P.G. Wodehouse
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 9th Jun 18, 4:54 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Hello,

    I know this post has been dead for a while but i'll see it through to the end for anyone that may find themselves in a similar situation. What has happened since:

    1. I sent a reconsideration of judgement request to the judge (14 day time limit) which mainly focused on points I felt had been overlooked or NOT included at all on the reserved judgement.

    2. I requested the judge reconsider what I felt was my 2 biggest pieces of evidence and asked for them to be included on the final judgement for appeals purposes, they were not on the final judgment. Her response was basically a fluffed up NO to even reconsider anything I put forward.

    3. She stated, that what I was asking for effectively amounted to a request for her to look at evidence already heard at the Tribunal.

    4. I asked for her to include in the final judgement that an ex manager agreed under oath that he had scored me too low when presented with evidence suggesting he had made a mistake for the Initiative category.

    5. The judge also determined that one scorer reduced my scoring by 10 points due to the fact I made a protected disclosure (evidenced in writing and under oath) but because 2 managers did not take this into consideration, the judge believes this does not count as suffering detriment for raising a protected disclosure under Employment Rights Act 1996, despite my marks being reduced from 20 to 15 because of it.

    "It is clear that one of the scorers took that into account when he was marking the claimant on certain categories. However, it is equally clear that the other scorers did not take that into account".

    6. In the category of relationships, 2 managers scored me 20 (out of 25) and one scored me 10 so my final score was 15, Even where the manager who scored me 10 was asked did you heavily weight your scoring on the fact the claimant made a protected disclosure? his answer was yes.

    7. I would advise anyone going to a tribunal without legal aid to be very careful. It was as clear as day to me, I even heard that the said manager thought the respondent would lose the case because of my evidence (to an ex-employee) and yet the judge thinks differently.

    8. The judge did not include that I wasn't afforded a constructive consultation. First time I was afforded an explanation of why my scores had been reduced for relationships was 6 months after I had left the company when we exchanged witness statements.

    9. The judge also did not include the fact that evidence was withheld from me until 5 minutes before I was due to go in on the second day. The Judge ordered the respondents solicitor to email me that evidence on the night of the first day of my tribunal but instead they gave it to me the following morning. The evidence showed that my appeals team did not investigate the fact I had made improvement proposals and should have been scored 5 points higher.

    10. I have appealed (42 day time limit). I have zero expectations for the outcome but will not give in till I have to. The Judge said my reconsideration effectively amounted to an appeal and rejected new evidence I received in the car journey home on the grounds the evidence could have been obtained before the tribunal (fair enough).

    The law is a strange subject in my eyes open to interpretations and many grey areas. I would advise anyone going alone to not. You need a decent solicitor unless your case is bomb proof. I'm left feeling disillusioned with the whole system and feel they have got it wrong (I know I'm bound to say that). I highlighted that the Judge has effectively gave permission for my ex-employer to continue with their ways which may result in non-reporting of health and safety matters. That is on their hands now. I know one of my ex-colleagues has now said he would think twice about raising concerns.

    I will let you know the outcome appeal.

    There is not a lot out there in terms of templates for schedule of loss, witness statements, letters to judges etc so if anyone would like copies of these templates I will be happy to forward them to you.
    Last edited by abcdef1234; 09-06-2018 at 6:07 PM.
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 15th Sep 18, 10:37 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Quick update for anyone still following this.

    I have received a response from my notice of appeal to the Employment Appeals Tribunal (EAT) which covered 5 grounds of appeal.

    The appeal has been permitted to proceed to a full hearing in respect of 1 out of the 5 grounds I appealed against.

    I have so many questions but I will be seeking legal advice on Monday as to what I have to do now if anything. At least I am in a position to pay for legal advice and it will be focused on one point of law.

    I don't even know if I will have to attend or if the decision will be made without me and sent to me by post again?

    "An order for a full hearing has been made by the learned Judge in respect of Ground 1 of the appeal that does identify a question of law and will be served under a separate cover"

    I don't know how to feel at the moment. I feel like finally someone sees what I am seeing or it's just another postponement to a disappointing result.

    I would be so grateful if anyone could help with the question of whether I will need to attend the full hearing again?

    Thanks
    Last edited by abcdef1234; 15-09-2018 at 10:39 PM.
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