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  • FIRST POST
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 7th Jan 18, 9:46 PM
    • 20Posts
    • 36Thanks
    shaleman
    ECP Country Park
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 18, 9:46 PM
    ECP Country Park 7th Jan 18 at 9:46 PM
    Hi, I received a parking charge notice from ECP for a Country Park in Kent, followed by a Notice to Keeper.
    I have read the newbie instructions and appealed to ECP using the template. The appeal was rejected and I now wish to submit my appeal to POPLA.
    Can I rely upon the following argument that I have seen quoted on another thread
    No right to claim under POFA
    As Euro Car Parks already knows, the car park at Country Park is owned and provided by Kent County Council, a "traffic authority" as defined under Paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 of POFA; this car park is therefore not "relevant land" under POFA. I am very concerned that ECP is claiming that it has the right under POFA to claim unpaid parking charges from the vehicle’s keeper, even though it should have been obvious to ECP that no such right exists.
Page 1
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 7th Jan 18, 10:28 PM
    • 667 Posts
    • 1,740 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    • #2
    • 7th Jan 18, 10:28 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Jan 18, 10:28 PM
    Indeed - so long as your are "appealing" as the vehicle's keeper that's a very valid point to include in your submission to POPLA. However, you will need to spell this out in Fisher Price language because some POPLA assessors seem to struggle understanding the finer points of POFA.

    Paragraph 3(2) of Schedule 4 of POFA defines !!!8220;traffic authority!!!8221; as meaning each of the following:

    (a) the Secretary of State;
    (b) the Welsh Ministers;
    (c) Transport for London;
    (d) the Common Council of the City of London;
    (e) the council of a county, county borough, London borough or district;
    (f) a parish or community council;
    (g) the Council of the Isles of Scilly.

    According to this definition, Kent County Council is therefore a "traffic authority".

    Paragraph 3(2) of Schedule 4 of POFA defines !!!8220;parking place!!!8221; as having the meaning given by section 32(4)(b) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 i.e. a place where vehicles, or vehicles of any class, may wait.

    Paragraph 3(1) of Schedule 4 of POFA states that in this Schedule !!!8220;relevant land!!!8221; means any land (including land above or below ground level) other than:

    (a) a highway maintainable at the public expense (within the meaning of section 329(1) of the Highways Act 1980);
    (b) a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority;
    (c) any land (not falling within paragraph (a) or (b)) on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control.

    The parking places at [xxxxxx] Country Park, having been provided by Kent County Council (a "traffic authority" as defined under Schedule 4) are therefore not relevant land by virtue of Paragraph 3 (1) (b) of Schedule 4.

    You'll also need to provide some proof that the Country Park is actually owned by the council. A screenshot from the council's website should do.

    https://www.kent.gov.uk/leisure-and-community/kent-country-parks/find-a-kent-country-park

    Of course, should the "appeal" progress as far as ECP providing you with an evidence pack, the cat will be out of the bag as soon as they provide details of any authorisation from the landowner (i.e. Kent County Council).

    Edit: you could also include a screenshot from this page on KCC's website where the council states that ECP are responsible for issuing parking penalty charges (is that so, KCC???).

    https://www.kent.gov.uk/leisure-and-community/kent-country-parks/season-tickets#tab-4
    Last edited by Edna Basher; 07-01-2018 at 10:58 PM.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 7th Jan 18, 11:03 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    • #3
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:03 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:03 PM
    Hi, thanks for the quick reply.

    The Country Park is owned by Kent County Council and I will be appealing as the vehicle's keeper.

    In my appeal to POPLA should I still include additional arguments about signage, landowner authority, keeper liability?

    Thank you
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Jan 18, 11:04 PM
    • 58,374 Posts
    • 71,901 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:04 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:04 PM
    Yes, always.

    The beauty of a loooong POPLA appeal is, it can win just because it's so long that many PPCs won't waste man hours contesting it. We've seen it so often, we know it is true that the 'kitchen sink' POPLA appeal does work in itself.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 7th Jan 18, 11:48 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    • #5
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:48 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:48 PM
    Thank you, will let you know how the appeal goes.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 24th Jan 18, 4:32 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    • #6
    • 24th Jan 18, 4:32 PM
    • #6
    • 24th Jan 18, 4:32 PM
    I received an email from POPLA advising that ECP had now uploaded their evidence via the portal. Unfortunately when I tried to open the pdf attachment there was an error message, "failed to load pdf document".
    I replied to POPLA on the email they sent me about the pdf issue, just slightly concerned now that I only have 7 days to respond to ECP's evidence on the portal but cannot read it. Should i wait for POPLA to respond to my email or is it best to phone them?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 24th Jan 18, 4:49 PM
    • 2,406 Posts
    • 4,285 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #7
    • 24th Jan 18, 4:49 PM
    • #7
    • 24th Jan 18, 4:49 PM
    As Euro Car Parks already knows, the car park at Country Park is owned and provided by Kent County Council, a "traffic authority" as defined under Paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 of POFA;
    Nonsense. It is only a traffic authority if it is acting in that capacity. Check with the council if there is a Parking Places Order on that car park.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 24th Jan 18, 11:01 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    • #8
    • 24th Jan 18, 11:01 PM
    • #8
    • 24th Jan 18, 11:01 PM
    The question i asked earlier today was whether I need to contact POPLA by email or by phone because I cannot open the pdf submitted by ECP on the POPLA portal?

    The response received contradicts previous opinion and has been given after the appeal to POPLA has been submitted.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 24th Jan 18, 11:33 PM
    • 7,666 Posts
    • 7,370 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #9
    • 24th Jan 18, 11:33 PM
    • #9
    • 24th Jan 18, 11:33 PM
    What response did you receive? I can't see one.

    Ring PoPLA. As you say, this is urgent.
    .
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 25th Jan 18, 12:39 AM
    • 667 Posts
    • 1,740 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    Nonsense. It is only a traffic authority if it is acting in that capacity. Check with the council if there is a Parking Places Order on that car park.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    "Traffic authority" may be defined differently in other Acts. However, for the purpose of deciding what is and isn't relevant land under Schedule 4 of POFA, it surely has to be the actual definition in Schedule 4 of POFA that counts?

    Paragraph 3 (1) (b) of Schedule 4 of POFA specifies that a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority is not relevant land.

    Schedule 4 of POFA defines "traffic authority" simply as meaning each of the following:
    (a) the Secretary of State;
    (b) the Welsh Ministers;
    (c) Transport for London;
    (d) the Common Council of the City of London;
    (e) the council of a county, county borough, London borough or district;
    (f) a parish or community council;
    (g) the Council of the Isles of Scilly.

    Schedule 4 of POFA defines !!!8220;parking place!!!8221; as having the meaning given by section 32(4)(b) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (i.e. a simple definition of "a place where vehicles, or vehicles of any class, may wait").

    Statutory control (including Orders in Council) is covered separately under Paragraph 3 (1) (c) i.e. any land (not falling within paragraph (a) or (b)) on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control is not relevant land.

    Whether or not the Government intended it to be that way, my reading of Schedule 4 of POFA is that any parking place provided or controlled by a county council is not relevant land, regardless of whether or not it is covered by a Parking Places Order. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.
    Last edited by Edna Basher; 25-01-2018 at 12:48 AM. Reason: Formatting
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 25th Jan 18, 2:53 AM
    • 2,406 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    @Edna. How is Dennis?

    I'm was going to disagree with you and cite London Councils and their Housing developments (NCP), City of London and their Commons (District) and certain councils in the South West (AS Parking)

    ... but it strikes me that I have not seen any court action from these organisations which suggests I may be wrong or at least the issue is of sufficient doubt that no-one wants to press it.

    The OP is at liberty to try it but ECP don't press these matters in any case.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 25th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    I have now received an email reply from POPLA which allows me to open the PDF submitted by ECP.
    They have not responded to the "No right to claim under POFA" argument but have on the other arguments about signage, landowner authority, keeper liability.

    I will draft a reply to POPLA rebutting ECP's evidence, is it worth mentioning that they have not responded on the No right to claim under POFA issue?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 25th Jan 18, 11:45 AM
    • 2,406 Posts
    • 4,285 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    I will draft a reply to POPLA rebutting ECP's evidence, is it worth mentioning that they have not responded on the No right to claim under POFA issue?
    It will be moot if the driver is identified but if not, then run that.

    And you can run the second argument that Edna has put up as (if Edna is correct) ECP may not want to go there and will drop the case.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 25th Jan 18, 11:46 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    Noted and thank you
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 25th Jan 18, 11:55 AM
    • 2,406 Posts
    • 4,285 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    And you can run the second argument that Edna has put up as (if Edna is correct) ECP may not want to go there and will drop the case.
    Not been clear enough about Edna's point. Though it was about POFA, it should be used to raise the issue of standing - similar to Indigo's standing in byelaws cases. You will be saying that there is no "creditor" as claimed by ECP but a statutory debt if proven. It would be dealt with by KCC using their powers and not ECP.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 26th Jan 18, 4:29 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    Here is my draft response to the ECP evidence pack sent to POPLA.

    As the Registered Keeper I contend that ECP have no right to claim under POFA. The parking places at Lullingstone Country Park, having been provided by Kent County Council (a "traffic authority" as defined under Schedule 4) are not relevant land by virtue of Paragraph 3 (1) (b) of Schedule 4.
    Statutory control (including Orders in Council) is covered separately under Paragraph 3 (1) (c) i.e. any land (not falling within paragraph (a) or (b)) on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control is not relevant land. The Parking charge notice amount of £70 which is claimed by ECP is therefore invalid and no !!!8220;creditor" exists. If a statutory debt is proven this would be dealt with by Kent County Council using their powers and not by ECP.

    ECP have provided no evidence of landowner authority for parking enforcement in the Car Park at Lullingstone Country Park, Eynsford. Instead they have supplied a copy of a contract for parking enforcement in Brockhill Country Park, Hythe.

    ECP have omitted the picture of the grey wooden sign at the entrance to the Car Park where the carved wording is too low on the sign to be read without the driver stopping.

    As the Registered Keeper I object to ECP using my name in the signage section of their evidence pack claiming that I was the driver when in fact I was not.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 26th Jan 18, 5:42 PM
    • 1,766 Posts
    • 2,389 Thanks
    Castle
    The terms and conditions for a season ticket does mention "Penalty Notice Charge" in paragraph 12; (although that's probably Kent CC being too lazy to find out the truth);-
    http://www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/67867/Season-Ticket-Terms-and-Conditions.pdf


    (Just seen Edna Basher has already mentioned it!)
    Last edited by Castle; 26-01-2018 at 5:46 PM.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 26th Jan 18, 10:07 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    Thank you.

    Is there any advantage in replying early to the evidence posted at POPLA by ECP or should I just wait until the 7th day?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Jan 18, 10:31 PM
    • 58,374 Posts
    • 71,901 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Never wait until the seventh day, because the day POPLA first emailed you was day one, meaning you only ever have six full days and the Portal door then closes.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 27th Jan 18, 5:36 AM
    • 574 Posts
    • 678 Thanks
    claxtome
    Is there any advantage in replying early to the evidence posted at POPLA by ECP or should I just wait until the 7th day?
    No advantage I can see just make sure you don't miss the deadline.

    Take note what Coupon-Mad said.

    I would send it in when happy with it.
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