VCS Parking - CCCF Letter Received - Defence helped needed

saarchy · 22 February 2017 at 8:49PM

Hi guys,

I have a few questions specific to my ongoing dispute with VCS. Hoping one of you might be kind enough to assist please!

I worked for a company for 5 years with poor parking facilities. I used to park on a nearby road in the same industrial estate, but after it became popular, VCS moved in. They only signposted half the road (only the parking bays) and would regularly ticket every car on the road, on both sides as well. After my first few tickets, I came here and read through the newbie forums. I found the template, fired that out to VCS and both of my parking tickets were cancelled. Excellent work MSE! I still collected tickets though for parking there (often dubiously) but instead of continuing to challenge them (as I had done the previously) I started ignoring them.

I've just had a CCCF issued to me on the 15th Feb from the CCBC for a grand total of £880. As per the newbie thread, I've submitted my AOS and now have plenty of time to prepare my defence. I've read though a few cases on here (as well as the excellent guidance on irrelevant defences) but hoped to get a few questions specific to my case answered if possible?

I'm happy to provide whatever documents/pictures you guys feel will aid in preparing a defence, so please ask!

Few initial questions though;

1) Given I've had 2 previous 'invoices' cancelled by using the MSE template, should that become the leading light in my defence?

2) VCS often ticketed cars on the road opposite to where they had put sign posts. Moreover, the signs were placed next to booths (which I never parked in) and tickets were handed to anybody that parked nearby. I can provide a picture or use Google Maps to show what I mean if easier?

3) I'm starting to prepare my defence now given the AOS has been submitted. Any suggestions on what previous posts might be decent to read? Or any further details you would like me to provide?

As always, massive thanks for whatever help comes my way! Apologies for brevity, happy to expand on any areas that are unclear

Guys_Dad · 22 February 2017 at 9:47PM

saarchy wrote: »

1) Given I've had 2 previous 'invoices' cancelled by using the MSE template, should that become the leading light in my defence? No. They offered you goodwill and you abused it

2) VCS often ticketed cars on the road opposite to where they had put sign posts. Moreover, the signs were placed next to booths (which I never parked in) and tickets were handed to anybody that parked nearby. I can provide a picture or use Google Maps to show what I mean if easier? Absolutely needed.

3) I'm starting to prepare my defence now given the AOS has been submitted. Any suggestions on what previous posts might be decent to read? Or any further details you would like me to provide?

As always, massive thanks for whatever help comes my way! Apologies for brevity, happy to expand on any areas that are unclear

You need to check with land registry who owns road and exactly where the boundaries are. Any entry signs to estate re-parking?

saarchy · 22 February 2017 at 10:02PM

I can check formally, but pretty sure the industrial estate is privately owned by the same company who builds/lets the offices on it. My company had a longstanding issue with the landlords on parking, and it's most likely why a private parking company was brought in.

They only put parking signs up on one side of the road where the booths were, but I never parked there. I parked further along the road or on the other side (both had yellow lines recently painted by the landlord I believe) but never obstructing a space or entry etc. Long story short, the parking tickets were dubious at best and caused all sorts of frustration/amusement in our 500+ employee office.

I can post pictures of the road if that might help advice given, or google maps is pretty accurate (ironically showing cars parked as mine often was, sans ticket!)

Thanks for the quick response as well!

E: Sorting a clear picture of the road now. Apologies, missed that part of your response

saarchy · 22 February 2017 at 10:19PM

Hopefully Imgur links are acceptable here.

http:// imgur.com/gallery/FQ8n0

This is just a google maps shot of the road (white block is name removed). The left red box is the parking sign next to the parking booths (which are always empty as the office they are for is currently not let) and the right hand red box is where I would often park and still get a ticket. Sometimes my car would back onto the yellow lines, but never enough to block the entrance to the next office (which was empty & unused).

You can see on the picture people parking where I also parked, alongside the bays. On busy days at the office, cars would often back up 7/8 deep behind each other alongside the booths (but never parked in them). On busy days like this I would park elsewhere, but would sometimes park just in front of where the white jeep is on the left hand side.

Does this help? I no longer work for the company, but have a friend who will be taking better pictures tomorrow for me to aid my defence. Can post those, including close up of the parking sign).

Coupon-mad · 22 February 2017 at 10:48PM

http://imgur.com/gallery/FQ8n0

I've just had a CCCF issued to me on the 15th Feb from the CCBC for a grand total of £880. As per the newbie thread, I've submitted my AOS and now have plenty of time to prepare my defence. I've read though a few cases on here (as well as the excellent guidance on irrelevant defences).

Good! All on course then, let's see the draft defence before it is submitted.

saarchy · 6 March 2017 at 5:04PM

Apologies for the delayed response, moving house has eaten up most of my time. My defence needs to be submitted by the 20th March, so a bit more time to prepare.

I've got a couple of queries regarding my defence. I've updated the gallery linked above with additional pictures taken a few days ago....

Insufficient Signage - As per the gallery, you can see the only visible sign (pic A) is hidden behind an overgrown hedgerow (pic B & pic D). The sign displayed in pic C has been removed/vandalized. On this point, what is the general consensus on vandalized signs? This has been an ongoing issue with the signage on the road and I'm wondering whether that hinders my defence or not? At no point was I, or anyone I know, involved in this but is this something the judge/prosecution might use against me? As I no longer live in the area, these pictures were supplied by an old work employee. Would I need to provide his details as a witness?

The only visible sign is on the north side of the road (Pic D) and next to the clearly indicated parking bays (at which no point were parked in). All tickets issued were for parking alongside the bays or on the other side of the road (Pic E is the best to use here, parking where the black Mercedes is or the grey mini). In front of both cars is fine to park and the double yellow lines stop around there (pic C). Is it worth raising the point that, not only is signage insufficient and poorly displayed but that tickets were issued in areas where there is clearly no private parking rules in place?

My defence rests on there being insufficient signage and seemingly applicable to the parking bays. As no tickets were issued for parking in the bays, I feel this is a strong point to raise. Also worth questioning - The parking bays are assigned to the office building next to the road. That building has remained vacant for the last 5 years and as such, the parking bays are unused. Even though nobody parks in the bays, is it worth raising the vacant bays to highlight that at no point was my car parked in a position which might block another car in?

I have received the particulars of claim from VCS advising that 8 tickets were issued between the 23/10/2015 to 26/9/2016. Is it worth sharing this letter with you guys as well?

The business park is owned by a single landholder who has engaged VCS to conduct private parking on the industrial estate. The road in question is a private road and part of the business park. As the business park owner is the one who engaged VCS, I presume there's no point raising this to him as a complaint?

Finally, I raised the point above that my first 2 tickets from VCS were successfully challenged (using the MSE template). The response letter I received from VCS was a short acknowledgment that the ticket was being cancelled and at no point, addressing the issues that I'd raised in my challenge. Guys Dad comment above says I shouldn't raise this as it's seen as goodwill by VCS rather than acknowledgment that tickets were/are being issued incorrectly. I don't understand this and don't understand how a judge wouldn't see this as an indication that VCS has been ticketing illegally. Can someone please advise on this in more detail?

I believe the next step is to draft my defence (and share here beforehand) before I send it directly to the court. Would anybody have any guidance on where to start with preparing the defence? I know the advice is burn the midnight oil and read threads, but I'm wondering if anyones knows a similiar case that I could plagiarize to save time? Moving house/jobs is really limiting my time to commit to this.

As always, massive thanks for any help received.

Coupon-mad · 7 March 2017 at 12:22AM

Insufficient Signage - As per the gallery, you can see the only visible sign (pic A) is hidden behind an overgrown hedgerow (pic B & pic D). The sign displayed in pic C has been removed/vandalized. On this point, what is the general consensus on vandalized signs? This has been an ongoing issue with the signage on the road and I'm wondering whether that hinders my defence or not? At no point was I, or anyone I know, involved in this but is this something the judge/prosecution might use against me? As I no longer live in the area, these pictures were supplied by an old work employee. Would I need to provide his details as a witness?

All of the above is in your favour, use it all.

There is no 'prosecution'!! It's a civil matter, a bit like Judge Rinder on TV without the quips, it's a disputed case: ''he said she said'' (that's it really) and one side wins, usually the one with the more convincing argument, if the Judge is fair.

No, you do not have to say who took the photos in your evidence.

In front of both cars is fine to park and the double yellow lines stop around there (pic C). Is it worth raising the point that, not only is signage insufficient and poorly displayed but that tickets were issued in areas where there is clearly no private parking rules in place?

Certainly. You would be a fool to miss out such stuff!

The parking bays are assigned to the office building next to the road. That building has remained vacant for the last 5 years and as such, the parking bays are unused. Even though nobody parks in the bays, is it worth raising the vacant bays to highlight that at no point was my car parked in a position which might block another car in?

It's not a major point but include it lower down in a defence, because some Judges might judge you otherwise, thinking you are a rogue parker and this shows you were not.

It is too late to complain to the business park owner once it is at court stage. Defence is the way forward.

I raised the point above that my first 2 tickets from VCS were successfully challenged (using the MSE template). The response letter I received from VCS was a short acknowledgment that the ticket was being cancelled and at no point, addressing the issues that I'd raised in my challenge. Guys Dad comment above says I shouldn't raise this as it's seen as goodwill by VCS rather than acknowledgment that tickets were/are being issued incorrectly. I don't understand this and don't understand how a judge wouldn't see this as an indication that VCS has been ticketing illegally. Can someone please advise on this in more detail?

I agree with Guys Dad. They cancelled them at the time because they wanted to find weaker victims, people not on a forum who would pay them without any work having to be done. They will say it was a 'goodwill gesture' and it all makes them look better in front of a Judge. Doesn't help your argument one iota so do not even draw attention to any 'goodwill gesture'. Of course it doesn't suggest they were issued illegally (they weren't).

saarchy · 7 March 2017 at 5:12PM

Coupon-mad wrote: »

I agree with Guys Dad. They cancelled them at the time because they wanted to find weaker victims, people not on a forum who would pay them without any work having to be done. They will say it was a 'goodwill gesture' and it all makes them look better in front of a Judge. Doesn't help your argument one iota so do not even draw attention to any 'goodwill gesture'. Of course it doesn't suggest they were issued illegally (they weren't).

Thanks for the response.

Just a final query on not mentioning the waived tickets - If my main defence is that the signs were inadequate, would there not be a fair point from the opposition that, given a total of 10 tickets were issued over a year period, not seeing the signs is negligible?

If that does happen, what is my response?

Coupon-mad · 7 March 2017 at 5:22PM

Nope you could say it proves the signs were inadequate and scarcely placed if you and other workers continued to park there oblivious, and it was their burden to ensure the parking charge and terms were in large lettering like in the Beavis case. They failed and the PCNs prove it - you could also suggest that more than one driver parked the car, if true, so there can be no assumption this was the keeper every time.

You know that submitting this defence is not the only stage before the hearing? Read bargepole's threads as linked in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread, all about small claim stage and how to submit & set out a defence/what to do when; including the vital 'witness statement and evidence' before the hearing, etc.

Lamilad · 7 March 2017 at 5:29PM

saarchy wrote: »

given a total of 10 tickets were issued over a year period, not seeing the signs is negligible?

If that does happen, what is my response?

The claimant has to convince the judge that the signs in place were ample and prominent enough to form a contract. If they weren't then your job is to convince the judge otherwise.

Excel vs Cutts, and Vine vs Waltham Forest are two cases that will help you (I'm sure there are many others) . Vine is binding case law from the court of appeal.

Photos of where the signs were compared to where you were parked may also help.

saarchy · 9 March 2017 at 10:30PM

I've taken a crack at writing my defence (see below). For the most part, I've written this myself and only used the guidelines for constructing your defence rather than plagiarizing someone elses. This is predominately because I could not find a defence that was similiar but mostly because I don't fully understand the legal jargon used within and do not want to copy a point only to have it used incorrectly in my defence.

Could you please have a read of the below and let me know what amendments need to be made? This is just a first draft, so brutally honest feedback please. Also, if there's historic cases/legal points that would be worth tacking on, please do let me know.

I've read the newbie FAQ and have a reasonable understanding of how to format the defence letter and the stages that follow.. However, I was wondering if it would be okay to submit this via e-mail rather than letter to the CCBC in Northampton. Is there any pressing reason to send via letter rather than e-mail?

Finally, I have a number of photos etc, but am I right in thinking those are submitted at the next stage (witness statement).

First draft below

In the County Court Business Centre
Statement of Defence
Claim Number: D0QZ924M
Between
Saarchy (Defendant)
and
Vehicle Control Services Ltd (Claimant)
I am Saarchy defendant in this matter and deny liability for the entirety of the claim;
On February 15th, I received a CCCF from Vehicle Control Services Ltd with regards to the pursuance of monetary compensation for 8 parking charge notices (PCN) issued between 23/10/2015 and 29/6/2016.
I deny this claim for the following reasons;
1) Insufficient signage on Fieldhouse Lane – All PCN in question were issued for parking on Fieldhouse Lane. At the time of writing, only 1 parking sign is currently erected on Fieldhouse Way. This is in direct conflict with Vehicle Control Services Ltd agreement with the Landholder to erect signs (plural) as stated in their Particulars of Claim (dated 22 February 2017)

2) Signage concealed on Fieldhouse Lane – The only sign erected on Fieldhouse Lane is partially concealed behind a metre high hedgerow. This hedgerow is not maintained by Vehicle Control Services and as such, they cannot maintain any form of legally binding contract with parked vehicles due to the only sign being hidden.

3) Ambiguous Signage – As per above, the only signage on Fieldhouse Lane is placed behind a large hedgerow. In addition, the sign placed on Fieldhouse Lane is directly adjacent to clearly marked parking bays. At no point were any PCN issued for parking in these bays. All PCN were issued for parking on the opposite side of the road or further along where there are no parking signs whatsoever. As such, it is with due reason to assume that this parking notice is applicable for said parking bays, and as no tickets were issued for parking in said bays, it stands to reason that these PCN are invalid.

4) Vacant parking bays – The parking pays mentioned in point 3 are aligned to a vacant lot directly adjacent to the road in question. During the timeframe that these PCN were issued, this lot remained vacant and therefore the parking bays remained unused. Whilst at no point were tickets issued for parking in aforementioned bays, it’s worth noting their being vacant for the purposes of parking nearby

I believe the facts contained in this Defence Statement are true

Signed

VCS Parking - CCCF Letter Received - Defence helped needed

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