Windows and Lintels - Ventrolla
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It's just the fact that the fitter who cut out our lintels said that's what he was doing and again justified doing that at the time, and I told my husband that after he came back and after I stopped the job. My husband then spoke to the manager who said they normally fix with screws, but would ask the fitter to make sure what he had done. She came back saying he had fixed them with screws. Today another fitter came to fix the box bay (which has also been made incorrectly so was not fitted in the end) so we asked if he could check if the others had been fixed, he confirmed none of them had been fixed, just foam used! Its just the fact there seems to be lie after lie and another thing I asked the question for and I had been fobbed off again. I had been doubting myself if that was what he said to me, this oxygen thief is a liar!0
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Clairebare1 wrote: »I am fuming, not only have these jokers cut out all our lintels, we have just discovered that not a single one of the windows that they fitted were actually fixed to a wall - so as well as living in a structurally unstable property, it is an unsecured property and has been for the last 3 months.
You have now been posting for almost three months, with the benefit of copious advice on this Forum and the expertise of a Structural Engineer and the window company manager. Yet you only now check to see if any of the windows have been fixed...did you really expect them to be?
Everybody respects your refusal to name and shame the company, but equally it is difficult to give 100% sympathy to you when you choose to protect such a company.
Please keep us all posted on how things pan out0 -
I wouldn't say we are protecting them, but you will see soon enough.
Yes, I expected them to be fixed - they said they had been. Also, neither my husband or I are experts in these windows, and fixings would have been (if they were there) behind pieces of plastic that had to be removed by the fitter, so not be visible by just looking.0 -
leveller2911 wrote: »Its not uncommon to find windows that have been wedged in place with wooden wedges or plastic packers and then fixed with foam with no form of machanical fixing (screws,frame anchors etc). I always fix windows with screws,anchors etc and only use foam for insulating around but thats just the way I like to do things..
It may not be uncommon, but it is also not acceptable. Combating this is as easy as adding one and one to make two. The consumer should request the BBA Certificate and fixing details (or similar), or the technical fixing details from the profile manufacturer, or get a copy of this via their installer. Then make it a contractual requirement that this followed. This is easily checked by a few random inspections by the consumer.
The bottom line is non compliance equals witheld payment. This is not rocket science- it is how the construction industry operates. Yet consumers have an inbuilt confidence, or misplaced confidence, that they do not have to follow these rules.0 -
It may not be uncommon, but it is also not acceptable. Combating this is as easy as adding one and one to make two. The consumer should request the BBA Certificate and fixing details (or similar), or the technical fixing details from the profile manufacturer, or get a copy of this via their installer.Then make it a contractual requirement that this followed. This is easily checked by a few random inspections by the consumer.
In nearly 30 years of working in the industry I've not once been asked to show window fixings to any building inspector, they are the ones who's job it is not the consumers job. They just check to see if the glass,draught stripping complies with regs, they never,ever look at how the window/door has been fixed. I've never been asked to supply/sign a contact either but I only deal with joe public and never site work.
I don't think the consumer should be expected to know how the work should be carried out, thats the tradesmans job. When I take my van to the garage I'm at their mercy to an extent, its down to word of mouth to find a genuine,honest garage who won't rip me off or do a bodge job and its no different in the Building trade and many other industries are the same.
You only need to look at the NHBC and see what a mess the industry is in when it comes to checking workmanship/compliance.
Who checks the compliance on residential properties? its Building control and they never ever look at fixings.The bottom line is non compliance equals witheld payment.
If only that were true...........Its how it should work but it doesn't work like that in practice.This is not rocket science- it is how the construction industry operates.
It may be that but also ignorance , which I don't really blame them. How many people have the time to educate themselves on any particular subject. I know I tend to research stuff but I don't have the time to spend researching hundreds/thousands of different construction practices.I know next to nothing about engines,fridges,carpets,cookers and I haven't got time to educate myself on what I should be looking for with regards to workmanship etc.Yet consumers have an inbuilt confidence, or misplaced confidence, that they do not have to follow these rules.0 -
leveller2911 wrote: »
In nearly 30 years of working in the industry I've not once been asked to show window fixings to any building inspector, they are the ones who's job it is not the consumers job. They just check to see if the glass,draught stripping complies with regs, they never,ever look at how the window/door has been fixed. I've never been asked to supply/sign a contact either but I only deal with joe public and never site work.
I don't think the consumer should be expected to know how the work should be carried out, thats the tradesmans job. When I take my van to the garage I'm at their mercy to an extent, its down to word of mouth to find a genuine,honest garage who won't rip me off or do a bodge job and its no different in the Building trade and many other industries are the same.
You only need to look at the NHBC and see what a mess the industry is in when it comes to checking workmanship/compliance.
Who checks the compliance on residential properties? its Building control and they never ever look at fixings.
If only that were true...........Its how it should work but it doesn't work like that in practice.
It may be that but also ignorance , which I don't really blame them. How many people have the time to educate themselves on any particular subject. I know I tend to research stuff but I don't have the time to spend researching hundreds/thousands of different construction practices.I know next to nothing about engines,fridges,carpets,cookers and I haven't got time to educate myself on what I should be looking for with regards to workmanship etc.
This reasoning is heard from time to time but it is flawed. For years there was no requirement for Building Inspectors to undertake site visits - they did so but it was not a legal requirement. Then add to this the visits are only concerned with the Regulations and the Regulations do not cover the fixing of windows. The type of glass, the ventilation by trickle ventilators, and going more vague sealing and draft proofing and so on are items covered. Hence your fixings will not receive inspection.
The upshot of this is the consumer has the obligation to check everything and this is backed up by legal concepts such as property law and caveat emptor.
Your comparison with a garage is not a fair reflection. Your work at a garage has more legal protection than buying a home. Further the value is frequently much lower and the work is not done on the consumers premises.
OP may have spent £20000 on the installation, and the work was done on her home, by people she invited into the home to do the work. A check on requirements would have taken perhaps at most one hours research in an evening. OP could then have watched to ensure her interests were being met. Getting a knife to run up a foamed joint to detect a solid fixing is child's play. But if all this is beyond the capability of a consumer then an Application for Buildings Regulations could have been made and a third party involved to protect OP's interests. None of this is rocket science. It appears none of this was done.0 -
We are very capable people, believe it or not, but why on earth would we want to "run a knife up a foamed joint" when this foam is our only means of protection from the elements and it has been for the last 3 months? Also, if we had allowed this person to carry on with the job (if we had been none the wiser about the lintels) all the foam would have been covered by decorative architrave!0
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leveller2911 wrote: »
Sorry Furts but I don't agree.The public cannot be expected to research every type of work/business carried out on their behalf by a 3rd party.The upshot of this is the consumer has the obligation to check everything and this is backed up by legal concepts such as property law and caveat emptor.
Only if problems arise and are investigated by someone with experience in that field. A friend of mine bought a van , it came with a years MOT (first MOT required as it was 3yrs old). 12months later he went to get it MOT'd only to find half the chassis was fibreglass.So should he have nown this ws the case before the MOT when it came to light about the fibreglass?..Your comparison with a garage is not a fair reflection. Your work at a garage has more legal protection than buying a home. Further the value is frequently much lower and the work is not done on the consumers premises.
It is a fair comparison imo.
Thats what FENSA is suppose to be for, so Joe Public can be assured that the work being carried out meets the current Building regs and best working practice. :doh:OP could then have watched to ensure her interests were being met. Getting a knife to run up a foamed joint to detect a solid fixing is child's play. But if all this is beyond the capability of a consumer then an Application for Buildings Regulations could have been made and a third party involved to protect OP's interests.
I think thats really harsh and we will have to agree to disagree on this one..None of this is rocket science. It appears none of this was done.0 -
leveller2911 wrote: »Its not uncommon to find windows that have been wedged in place with wooden wedges or plastic packers and then fixed with foam with no form of machanical fixing (screws,frame anchors etc). .
This is common in the replacement window game.
Just to point out that the OPs original sashes would have been held in with less, wedges only and no foam and then plastered round.0 -
I have just fitted windows in a very large chemical plant in ellesmere port . Nothing that I haven't done before . due to the amount of steel rods in the walls and roof space I could only get fixings into the cill and foam the rest . im not happy doing it but it wouldn't be possible to get any fixings into anything else . As it seems that box sash or similar was coming out . I would have fixed some timber/add on to the sides of the frames then fixed through that to secure the frames in . but not always the case .:cool: hard as nails on the internet . wimp in the real world :cool:0
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