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1 Big Car Park, 2 landowners, Valid parking ticket but Parking Charge Issued

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claxtome
claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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edited 11 October 2017 at 2:11PM in Parking tickets, fines & parking
Backgound
1 big car park 2 landowners - local council and private (ESxxx) which is AOS member and should follow IPC guidelines)
2 entrances from highway to ES part and 1 entrance from highway to Council part.
Bought valid parking ticket in council part; drove to private part and parked.
Didn't realise the car park covered 2 areas of land ownership.
No signage at change of land ownership against IPC CoP guidelines
No boundary fence on the day
Came back later in day with 'Notice to Driver' parking charge with words "council tickets not valid in this part of car park"
Have produced a DVD showing how it is possible to drive round the car park without going back onto a highway

NTK came back 39 days later. I ignored and didn't appeal

Further letters and sent my response appeal
Received reply stating too late to appeal and continuing with chasing letters.

Received LBC from Gladstones which I replied

Received MCOL court claim letter from Northampton early April


Defence, WS and Skeleton have now been submitted and court date is very soon

My defence, WS, evidence etc. are in this folder->
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r1mszyesx5cxpoa/AACVSwFWvw_nXMN0soZAO964a?dl=0

Claimant's WS and evidence are in this fo!der->
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/im119eaq9etiyo8/AADm3lCyIuUpeg7itMoGtrq_a?dl=0

Thanks for reading.
«13456723

Comments

  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
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    a few points

    it is not a "fine" , it is an INVOICE

    no magistrate will be involved in this case if it goes to court

    any future court case will be using the MCOL system, a civil small claims court where a judge will preside

    read post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread where court procedures etc are explained

    nobody can tell you your "chances" of winning, court is a lottery and only a fool would predict any outcome (Beavis thought he would win in court , he lost , 3 times)

    you are saying it is going to court, so presumably you have a court claim (MCOL) in the post from Northampton Bulk Centre ? if so, read and follow post #2 of that NEWBIES sticky thread

    then use the forum search box to find recent court defences by other members here , so anthing in the last 16 months, nothing older

    no you are not "in the wrong" , you have the right to go to court and defend yourself, which we would tell you to do anyway
  • Loadsofchildren123
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    I'm not sure you should bother denying being the driver, unless you have a POFA argument that the notice to keeper is invalid under that Act?
    By what you say, you have a good case. One set of signs setting out terms which you accepted and complied with, with no indication at all that these terms only applied to part of the carpark and a different set applied to the other part (not demarcated or distinguished in any way). I wonder what the point is of denying you were the driver when you have all this to say and can prove it?

    Which parking company is it?

    Your defence should be exactly what you say - that you drove in, read and accepted the terms and paid, that you were not offered any other terms and did not accept them.
    You can also argue entrapment.

    Have you been back there - what are the different terms between the two areas? Are there different parking companies for each part? The whole thing would be even more of a joke if the same PPC manages each part. What are the signs like in each part - more prominent/better in one than the other? Did you pass any other signs but didn't notice them (and why? were they for instance small, high up, with small font?)

    A bit more detail and we can help more.

    Have you had a claim? Acknowledge it to say you are defending, do not put in your defence with this but afterwards (the thread gives you the timetable). Read more threads on this forum and parking prankster and pepipoo, then have a go at your defence and post it here for help/suggestions.

    The more work you put into this, the more help you will get. It is hard work, you have a lot of reading and research to do, but based on what you say you do have a good defence.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    edited 25 July 2017 at 6:42AM
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    Thanks for your replies.
    Yes I have an MCOL letter from Northampton and have extended my response by doing an "acknowledge of service".

    Answers to questions ->
    Parking Company = "ES....."
    I am going to take a look at signage as in my local town today and check frequency of signage etc...
    The other area of the car park is council owned which was the ticket i purchased. At the time both areas were same cost. I have a video which shows one small sign, highup, small lettering, which would have passed on my journey to parking in the second area.

    Working on my defence this week, will post it when feel it is in draft state.

    Any more suggestions of cases / tips / things to look for will be greatly received.

    Note: Thanks for tip for not denying being driver - was just using standard letter. I wish i had sent a better reply to the "Letter before claim" received.

    Anyway
    Thanks
  • Loadsofchildren123
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    claxtome wrote: »
    I have a video which shows one small sign, highup, small lettering

    I wish i had sent a better reply to the "Letter before claim" received.

    The AOS CoP will say that signs must be visible to drivers from their cars, this wouldn't have been. Not sure whether ES is BPA or IPC, but whichever it is the CoP will have been breached (make this a part of your defence). There should also be clear entrance signage according to the CoP.

    Re your second point - don't worry, it wouldn't have made a difference. The business model of the PPCs is that they steamroll people like us, and most pay up either at the start or when they panic that there are going to be court proceedings. I think you have a good defence. They proceed against everyone - even those with a good defence. They often withdraw a day or two before the hearing, they take you up to the wire hoping you'll chicken out. My PPC withdrew just the day before - they day before that they were offering to settle for £150 which I rejected.

    You have an entrapment argument as well.

    You should also reserve your position specifically in your defence about a breach of the DPA (my PPC didn't like that at all, they withdrew on condition I didn't pursue any counterclaim even though I hadn't actually made one).

    Also, look on the online planning portal of your council planning dept to see if the PPC has planning/advertisement consent for the signs. A couple of days ago there was a thread specifically about planning for parking signs (which are classed as advertisements). I was posting on it (if you can't find it search for my posts) - if the PPC didn't have planning permission they were committing a criminal offence and you can also defend on the basis that a Claimant cannot rely on a wrongful/criminal act on which to found a claim. this is not your primary argument, and if you run it you must run it properly, quoting the case law. Most people think that the judges will think that if the council aren't taking enforcement action then they aren't bothered, and why should the judge be -
    but the case law doesn't lie and you would argue that the council is strapped for cash and chooses what to pursue, but the court is a court of law and should uphold the law. That's where quoting the case law helps you - just because you are a small claim why should elements of the law be ignored - the law applies to every case, big or small. And complain to your local council about the signs if there is no permission for them.

    Have a go with your draft defence and put it up here for comment.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    edited 6 August 2017 at 6:21AM
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    Thank for so much for your reply and have drafted the following. ES are AOS members and should follow IPC code of practice.
    Also I have amended my first post to make it more succinct.


    In the County Court
    Claim Number:
    Between
    xxxx (Claimant)
    and
    xxxx (Defendant)


    Defence Statement


    Preliminary Matters.

    1. The claimant failed to include a copy of their written contract as per Practice Direction
    16 7.3(1) and Practice Direction 7C 1.4(3A). No indication is given as to the
    Claimants contractual authority to operate there as required by the Claimants Trade
    Association's Code of Practice B1.1 which says
    1.1 If you operate parking management activities on land which is not owned by you, you
    must supply us with written authority from the land owner sufficient to establish you
    as the ‘Creditor’ within the meaning of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (where
    applicable) and in any event to establish you as a person who is able to recover
    parking charges. There is no prescribed form for such agreement and it need not
    necessarily be as part of a contract but it must include the express ability for an
    operator to recover parking charges on the landowner’s behalf or provide sufficient
    right to occupy the land in question so that charges can be recovered by the operator
    directly. This applies whether or not you intend to use the keeper liability provisions.

    2. The Particulars of Claim do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as
    there is nothing which specifies how the terms were breached. Indeed the Particulars
    of Claim are not clear and concise as is required by CPR 16.4 1(a). The Claimants are
    known to be serial issuers of generic claims similar to this one. HM Courts Service
    have identified over 1000 similar sparse claims. I believe the term for such behaviour
    is roboclaims and as such is against the public interest.

    Practice Direction 3A which references Civil Procedure Rule 3.4 illustrates this point:!
    1.4 The following are examples of cases where the court may conclude that particulars of
    claim (whether contained in a claim form or filed separately) fall within rule 3.4(2)(a):
    1. those which set out no facts indicating what the claim is about, for example ‘Money owed £5000’,
    2. those which are incoherent and make no sense,
    3. those which contain a coherent set of facts but those facts, even if true, do not
    disclose any legally recognisable claim against the defendant


    On the basis of the above, we request the court strike out the claim for want of a
    cause of action.



    Statement of Defence

    I am XXXXX, defendant in this matter. It is admitted that the Defendant was the
    authorised registered keeper of the vehicle in question at the time of the alleged
    incident and was the driver of the car that day.
    The Defendant denies liability for the entirety of the claim for the following reasons.

    1. The claimant has not provided enough details in the Particular of Claim to file a full
    defence.
    a) The Claimant has stated that a parking charge was incurred.
    b) The Claimant has given no indication of the nature of the alleged charge.
    c) There is no information regarding why the charge arose, what the original charge
    was, what the alleged contract was nor anything which could be considered a fair
    exchange of information.
    d) On the 20th September 2016 another relevant poorly pleaded private parking
    charge claim by Gladstones was struck out by District Judge Cross of St
    Albans County Court without a hearing due to their ‘roboclaim’ particulars being
    incoherent, failing to comply with CPR. 16.4 and ‘providing no facts that could
    give rise to any apparent claim in law.’
    e) On the 27th July 2016 DJ Anson sitting at Preston County Court ruled that the very
    similar parking charge particulars of claim were eficient and failing to meet CPR 16.4
    and PD 16 paragraphs 7.3 – 7.6. He ordered the Claimant in that case to file new
    particulars which they failed to do and so the court confirmed that the claim be
    struck out.

    The Defendant asks that the court orders Further and Better Particulars of Claim and
    asks leave to amend the Defence.

    2. The Claimant has not complied with the pre-court protocol.
    a) No initial information was sent to the Defendant for the following
    (i) Full particulars of the parking charges.
    (ii) Who the party was that are contracted with ES......
    (iii) The full legal identity of the landowner
    (iv) A full copy of the contract with the landholder that demonstrated that ES Parking had
    their authority.
    (v) If the charges were based on damages for breach of contract and if so to provide justification of this sum
    (vi) If the charge was based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking
    and If so to provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.
    (vii) To provide a copy of the signs that ES Parking can evidence were on site and which contended formed a contract with the driver on that occasion, as well as all Photographs taken of the vehicle in question.
    b) I'd refer the court to Para 4 on non-compliance and sanction, and I'd also point out
    that there can be no reasonable excuse for the Claimant's failure to follow the Pre-
    action Conduct process, especially bearing in mind that the Claim was issued by their
    own Solicitors so they clearly had legal advice before issuing proceedings.


    3. I have the reasonable belief that the Claimant does not have the authority to issue charges on this land in
    their own name and that they have no rights to bring action regarding this claim.
    a) The Claimant is not the landowner and is merely an agent acting on behalf of the
    landowner and has failed to demonstrate their legal standing to form a contract.
    b) The Claimant is not the landowner and suffers no loss whatsoever as a result of a
    vehicle parking at the location in question
    c) The Claimant is put to proof that it has sufficient interest in the land or that there are
    specific terms in its contract to bring an action on its own behalf. As a third party
    agent, the Claimant may not pursue any charge

    4. No planning permission for signage
    a) The Claimant is not entitled to rely on an illegal or immoral act in order to profit from it, pursuant to the doctrine ex dolo malo non oritur actio. In this matter, the Claimant does not have planning/advertisement consent in relation to its parking signage on the land in question (which are classed as “advertisements” under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007 (as amended). This is a criminal offence under Regulation 30 of those Regulations. Accordingly, as a matter of public policy the principle ex dolo malo non oritur action should apply – namely, the Claimant should not be allowed to found a cause of action on an immoral or an illegal act (in this case the unlawful signage). The rationale for this is set out in the case of Holman v Johnson (1775) 1 Cowp 341 and was reaffirmed in RTA (Business Consultants) Ltd v Bracewell [2015] EWHC 630 (QB) (12 March 2015). The Defendant also relies on Andre Agassi v S Robinson (HM Inspector of Taxes) [2005] EWCA Civ 1507.
    b) In addition to the criminal offence committed by the Claimant, it is in breach of various statutory and regulatory provisions set out in the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (Regulation 3 – a breach of which is an offence under Regulation 5), the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (Sections 62 and 68 and Schedule 2) and the Consumer Contract (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (Regulation 13). Again, the court should not lend its aid to the Claimant in founding a claim based on its unlawful and/or immoral conduct.
    c) Furthermore, it must be contrary to public policy for a court to enforce a contract whereby a party will profit from its criminal conduct and the Defendant will rely on ParkingEye v Somerfield Stores [2012] EWCA Civ 1338

    5. The signage was inadequate to form a contract with the motorist even if it did have planning permission
    a) Signs are too high to be easily seen from a car thus failing IPC CoP guidelines
    b) The car park has 2 different landowners; one area owned by the local council; the other privately owned and managed by the Claimant. There is no signage at change of land ownership which goes against AOS CoP guidelines.
    c) There is also no fence at land ownership boundary to stop travel between 2 areas. A driver who bought a legitimate ticket for Council area of car park but unknowingly ends up parking in the private area of car park can be penalised without knowing it and vice versa. A form of entrapment which it feels like in this case. IPC CoP Part B 14.1 says "You must not use predatory or misleading tactics to lure drivers into incurring parking charges Such instances will be viewed as a serious instance of non-compliance"

    6.
    a) The Claimant has sent threatening and misleading demands which stated that
    further debt recovery action would be taken to recover what is owed by passing the
    debt to a ‘local’ recovery agent (which suggested to the Defendant they would be
    calling round like bailiffs) adding further unexplained charges of £25, and later an
    extra £35, to the £100 with no evidence of how this extra charge has been calculated.
    No figure for additional charges was 'agreed' nor could it have formed part of the
    alleged 'contract' because no such indemnity costs were quantified on the signs.
    Terms cannot be bolted on later with figures plucked out of thin air, as if they were
    incorporated into the small print when they were not.
    b) The extra charges appear to be an added cost with apparently no qualification and an
    attempt at double recovery, which the POFA Schedule 4 specifically disallows.
    c) The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred £60 costs
    to pursue an alleged £100 debt.
    d) The Protection of Freedom Act Para 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be
    recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper.

    Data Protection Act breach
    For the reasons set out above, the parking charge which is the subject of these proceedings is invalid. The Claimant therefore had no right to request the keeper’s details from the DVLA and to use them, and has breached the Defendant’s rights under the Data Protection Act by doing both. Vidal-Hall v Google Inc [2014] EWHC 13 (QB) is authority that misuse of personal data is a tort. Halliday v Creation Consumer Finance Ltd [2013] All ER (D) 199 is authority that a reasonable sum of compensation would be £750. The Defendant reserves his rights in respect of these matters.

    I believe the facts stated in this defence are true.


    (Signature) (Date)
  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    edited 3 May 2017 at 1:08PM
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    You should also reserve your position specifically in your defence about a breach of the DPA (my PPC didn't like that at all, they withdrew on condition I didn't pursue any counterclaim even though I hadn't actually made one)

    I am a little unsure what you mean about breach of DPA.
    Can you please explain Loadsofchildren123 or anyone else.

    Also
    I can't find any planning permission for signage on the local council for the PPC so have added defence in this area.

    Finally
    Can you please look over my draft defence in the last post.
    I intend to submit it tomorrow (Thu).
  • Loadsofchildren123
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    Put a heading "Data Protection Act breach"


    Then:


    For the reasons set out above, the parking charge which is the subject of these proceedings is invalid. The Claimant therefore had no right to request the keeper’s details from the DVLA and to use them, and has breached the Defendant’s rights under the Data Protection Act by doing both. Vidal-Hall v Google Inc [2014] EWHC 13 (QB) is authority that misuse of personal data is a tort. Halliday v Creation Consumer Finance Ltd [2013] All ER (D) 199 is authority that a reasonable sum of compensation would be £750. The Defendant reserves his rights in respect of these matters.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    Thank you Loadsofchildren123 I have amended my draft defence in the previous post above to include the "Data Protection Act Breach".
  • Loadsofchildren123
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    On the planning permission point, I'd suggest these paragraphs:

    The Claimant is not entitled to rely on an illegal or immoral act in order to profit from it, pursuant to the doctrine ex dolo malo non oritur action. In this matter, the Claimant does not have planning/advertisement consent in relation to its parking signage on the land in question (which are classed as “advertisements” under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007 (as amended). This is a criminal offence under Regulation 30 of those Regulations. Accordingly, as a matter of public policy the principle ex dolo malo non oritur action should apply – namely, the Claimant should not be allowed to found a cause of action on an immoral or an illegal act (in this case the unlawful signage). The rationale for this is set out in the case of Holman v Johnson (1775) 1 Cowp 341 and was reaffirmed in RTA (Business Consultants) Ltd v Bracewell [2015] EWHC 630 (QB) (12 March 2015). The Defendant also relies on Andre Agassi v S Robinson (HM Inspector of Taxes) [2005] EWCA Civ 1507.

    In addition to the criminal offence committed by the Claimant, it is in breach of various statutory and regulatory provisions set out in the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (Regulation 3 – a breach of which is an offence under Regulation 5), the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (Sections 62 and 68 and Schedule 2) and the Consumer Contract (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (Regulation 13). Again, the court should not lend its aid to the Claimant in founding a claim based on its unlawful and/or immoral conduct.

    Furthermore, it must be contrary to public policy for a court to enforce a contract whereby a party will profit from its criminal conduct and the Defendant will rely on ParkingEye v Somerfield Stores [2012] EWCA Civ 1338
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • DoaM
    DoaM Posts: 11,863 Forumite
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    ex dolo malo non oritur actio (not action)

    :)
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