Begin Popla Appeal - Kay St Bolton

asmartguy · 29 January 2019 at 2:59PM

Hi Guys,

Vehicle was parked in an empty car park one late evening with the driver not realising that the car park was monitored by ECP ANPR cameras. As the keeper I received a Notice for payment in the post a few days later. I used the basic appeal template from the newbies thread to appeal on their website and as expected my appeal has been rejected. Can someone give me or direct me to a suitable template that can be used for my Popla appeal.

Thanks

Le_Kirk · 29 January 2019 at 3:05PM

Go to the NEWBIE sticky here for all advice on POPLA.

asmartguy · 29 January 2019 at 3:11PM

Here is the response from ECP they also included images of the car entering and leaving the car park.

Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you we have decided to reject your appeal for the following reasons:
• The car park is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR).
• Euro Car Parks do not need to provide evidence of who was driving the vehicle, it is the registered keeper’s responsibility to inform of the full name and address within 28 days beginning with the day after the notice was given. If the full amount remains unpaid, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘the Act’), Euro Car Parks have the right subject of the Act to recover from the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked so much of that amount which remains unpaid.
• Any form of parking ticket or ‘notice’ is issued under the law ‘of trespass and Contract Law’. A driver who is invited (or chooses) to park on private land and use the car parking facilities and pays a fee/s does so under a contract (signage) with the car park operator. The parking contract sets out the terms that apply to the parking service, including the price.
• I would respectfully remind that contract law applies in this instance. The car park is private property and signage on entrance and within the private car park the signage on site clearly set out the rules and regulations of the car park and tariffs.
• With regards to the reference to “Pre-Estimate of Loss/breach of consumer contracts 1999.” Please be advised that the Supreme Court has made judgement (04/11/15) that clearly sets out the issue of parking charge notices on private land (law of contract applies) and in particular pre-estimate of loss.
• The parking charge notice is enforceable on the basis that it protected a legitimate interest when the driver failed to adhere to the terms and conditions and was not extravagant, exorbitant nor unconscionable. The parking charge is not an unenforceable penalty and does not breach the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. C1 MB AR/NoPD/v.001
• The Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) does not alter the principle of driver liability. What it does do, is to allow proceedings against the registered keeper for unpaid parking charges when the landowner or their agent, the parking operator does not know who the driver was at the time. The creditor/operator must follow the procedures set out in PoFA Schedule 4 to achieve the benefits of keeper liability
• Cameras capture an image of vehicles entering and leaving the car park and calculate their length of stay on site.
• When purchasing a pay and display ticket, you must enter the correct vehicle registration number (VRM) and this information is directed to the camera system.
• I can confirm that no pay and display ticket matching your VRM was purchased at the time of the terms and conditions.
• The signage is clear, a valid pay and display ticket must be purchased for the full duration of your stay on the car park.
• I can confirm the parking charge notice was issued correctly and remains payable. Please make payment of £100.00 by visiting our website or use the automated telephone service 0203 553 4559. Alternatively make your cheque payable to Euro Car Parks Limited (to include a £2.50 handling charge for cheque processing) and post to Euro Car Parks Ltd, 30 Dorset Square, London, NW1 6QJ, quoting the PCN number on the reverse of the cheque. This amount is now due and the charge will be held for 14 days to allow time to make the payment. If payment is not received within this time further charges will apply. You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure.
You can make an appeal to The Independent Appeals Service (POPLA) within 28 days online with the following reference number %$£%£$%£$ ETC ETC…

asmartguy · 29 January 2019 at 3:17PM

Thanks for your reply, I have read the thread. The issue I can't really find a winning popla template to match my case. They all seem to be very specific. I was hoping someone might have come across one that fits my case and they could direct me to it. The driver did not purchase a ticket and the ANPR clearly shows entering and leaving after a fairly long period (30 mins or so) so I'm not sure what template to use..

Fruitcake · 29 January 2019 at 3:18PM

Why have the scammers referred to genuine pre-estimate of loss, or did you use an old appeal template? GPEOL is not in the current one.

No matter, use all the template PoPLA appeal points you can find in post 3 of the NEWBIES. Post your draft here for checking before you submit it.

Get your own pics of the site and signage to use in your appeal. If the driver didn't buy a ticket because the signage was inadequate, then of course you include that point.

Don't go looking for reasons not to appeal. It's up to the scammers to prove you wrong, so include EVERY point that you can.
They are all specific to address very specific failings by the scammers.
If they don't have a contract to manage the car park, they cannot charge you for using it.
You don't believe they have a contract so you challenge them on no landowner authority.

etcetera.

The_Deep · 29 January 2019 at 4:33PM

They also referred to UTCCCR which is long gone, did OP include that as well?

The whole industry is a scam, relying on threats of court, and the public's ignorance of the Law, A bill is currently before parliament which will regulate the scammers, many of whom are ex-clampers.

This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors. Is has been suggested by an MP that some of these companies may have connections to organised crime.

Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, (especially Smart}, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week), hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers.

Sir Greg Knight's Private Members Bill to curb the excesses, and perhaps close down, some of these companies passed its Second Reading in the Lords this month, and, with a fair wind, will l become Law later this year..

All five readings are available to watch on the internet, (some 7-8 hours), and published in Hansard. MPs have an extremely low opinion of the industry. Many are complaining that they are becoming overwhelmed by complaints from members of the public. Add to their burden, complain in the most robust terms about the scammers.

asmartguy · 30 January 2019 at 12:06PM

I used the basic blue template from the newbies thread. Does this mean I've messed my appeal up then? Can someone please suggest a template for me to use?

Umkomaas · 30 January 2019 at 12:16PM

asmartguy wrote: »

I used the basic blue template from the newbies thread. Does this mean I've messed my appeal up then? Can someone please suggest a template for me to use?

The blue template was the one to use in your initial appeal to ECP.

Le Kirk and Fruitcake have told you where you can find near-template examples of what to write in a POPLA appeal. Let us see your draft, and if someone has time they will have a quick look through and point up any glaring errors/omissions.

You should also do a focused forum search on keywords ECP POPLA and read recent (last 3-4 months) examples of ECP-related POPLA appeals that have been successful.

But please note - if you are looking for an 'exact fit' you ain't going to find that needle in this haystack!

HOW TO USE THE FORUM SEARCH FUNCTION:

Hit your 'Back' button to get back to the forum thread list. On the bar just above the threads you'll see the 'Search' function. Click on the 'Advanced Search' button and on the following page place your keyword(s) in the 'Search By Keyword(s)' and make sure the 'Show Results As' button (at the foot of the window) is changed from 'Threads' to 'Posts'.

@Fruitcake

Why have the scammers referred to genuine pre-estimate of loss, or did you use an old appeal template? GPEOL is not in the current one.

I think I recognise the ECP response as a general blunderbuss template response.

The_Deep · 30 January 2019 at 12:42PM

I think I recognise the ECP response as a general blunderbuss template response.

Could this be used against them in court I wonder. If the blunderbuss letter also mentions Elliot v Loake then surely they are misleading the motorist.

asmartguy · 30 January 2019 at 12:57PM

Thanks #The Deep#

Below is what I used for my inital appeal to which the above reply came.

Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

- If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

- If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.

- in all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

Formal note:
Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

Yours faithfully,

SO does this mean they've just replied to me with a generic template? Can that be used to support my Popla appeal?

asmartguy · 30 January 2019 at 1:00PM

Thanks #umkomaas#, could you at least give me a link to a recent one that you think will be SIMILAR to what I need? I don't want to choose one which is totally irrelevant to my case unknowingly. Thank you.

Begin Popla Appeal - Kay St Bolton

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