Electric cars

(Deastons)

I'll buy an electric car when both these apply:

a) Doesn't look ugly/futuristic/different
b) Doesn't cost £50k+

When I can buy a car that happens to be electric, I'm in. I reckon it'll come in the next few years.

How about the Renault Zoe, launched in 2014? How about the eGolf?

(Martyn)

Now, that's not a bad thing, in fact I'm impressed they are doing so well so far, but, you need to understand that Tesla was also profitable against variable costs as proven by their reaching profitability after the S, then after the X and (taking their word for it) shortly after the 3 reaches the adequate production levels.

Yes. Let's leave it at this para, which I agree with. I got ahead of myself with Zoe profitability, and I'll back it up to 'Renault are ahead of other 'legacy' manufacturers in terms of profitability. They're not there yet, per unit, but are closest. Never had any problem with any of the Tesla part there.

But, and this is genuine, you said a while back that I'd posted positive spin. That's not been my intention. Can you point me to these as I may need to revise/edit them if that's true.

Maybe we need to define spin? I'm taking it to be adding opinion to fact - At the basic level 'Tesla aren't in profit, but that's not a bad thing' I suggest is positive (pro Tesla) spin. 'Tesla aren't in profit, and that's a bad thing' is negative spin. Spin free would be 'Tesla aren't in profit' - I guess that's what I've been banging on about.
There is nothing wrong with 'spin' (if you accept that definition), you're wholly transparent about being pro-EV, and I am too. But it's opinion added to a fact, and can lead to opinion and fact being confused.

For instance, (made up numbers alert) let's say sales of EV's represent 2% of all sales, but the sales are rising approx 40%pa, then we will see an approx doubling every two years. I might say that theoretically they could hit 64% and 100% in 10 and 12 yrs time. That's being positive. Positive spin is if I say they will hit 100% in 12yrs.

Absolutely. I think we've been through this one in this very thread! (More madeup numbers) - you say 'EV sales have doubled this year, that's great' - that's a fact, plus positive spin.
AdrianC replies saying 'yeah, they make up 2% of cars on the road, not great' - that's another fact, with negative spin.
You're both right, but using different facts to forward your different hopes and dreams (agendas? Having an agenda isn't a bad thing either!).

(zeupdater)

Hi

Maybe I could help here

You did, the penny was already dropping, but it has landed!

It's pretty simple really! ....

(Martyn)

You are kidding, right? My head is still spinning

Agreed!

(Car54)

Neither. I was simply pointing out that there’s is a difference between facts and predictions/projections/guesses.

Yes! We just need to be careful about keeping these separate.

(zeupdater)

it's often possible to move an entire product line from being loss-making into profit through reducing prices (yes reducing prices!) to grow market share ...

I'd argue (without a shred of evidence to back me up!) that this is what Renault did in 2015, and how they got me into an EV in the first place. Get the things on the road, build awareness.

Yep, massive disruption. I think it was Koenigsegg (can't spell it) that said the Tesla Roadster had re-written the rules and no ICE car without an element of EV could be on top any more.

I hope they leave 'some' performance cars alone. They have a place - not commuting, nor a school run, but I'd hate to lose the sound of a V10 to history! Hopefully we'll be left in a situation where enthusiasts are prepared to, an able to, pay a bit of a premium to buy and keep 'special' cars on the road.

almillar wrote: »

Maybe we need to define spin? I'm taking it to be adding opinion to fact - At the basic level 'Tesla aren't in profit, but that's not a bad thing' I suggest is positive (pro Tesla) spin. 'Tesla aren't in profit, and that's a bad thing' is negative spin. Spin free would be 'Tesla aren't in profit' - I guess that's what I've been banging on about.
There is nothing wrong with 'spin' (if you accept that definition), you're wholly transparent about being pro-EV, and I am too. But it's opinion added to a fact, and can lead to opinion and fact being confused.

Hmm. I'll have to think on that, where does positive opinion become spin. Perhaps your example is correct,

'EV sales have doubled this year, that's great'

I'd call that me adding an opinion to the news, but I can see how it could be read as my defining it as good news. Obviously in this example I think it is good news 'fact' as I'm 100% convinced that EV's are better than ICE's (as a transport solution), but some may not .... hmmmm, tricky.

Will have to consider 'micro-spin' in future. What I'm against is 'proper' spin, such as, Tesla hasn't made a profit recently, so therefore Tesla is unprofitable as a company. The start is fine, that's how spin works, but the conclusion or intonation goes too far.

So long as most of us are aware of anti-EV and especially anti-Tesla spin and posters, then none of it really matters in the big scheme of things, especially if they are profitable now, or next quarter - then there's no going back on EV's, but I bet the old and big US companies will resist as long as possible.

almillar wrote: »

I hope they leave 'some' performance cars alone. They have a place - not commuting, nor a school run, but I'd hate to lose the sound of a V10 to history! Hopefully we'll be left in a situation where enthusiasts are prepared to, an able to, pay a bit of a premium to buy and keep 'special' cars on the road.

Big smiles from me. I'm a V8 rumble lover, hardly ever bothered to take the removable stereo with me for a spin when I had the Firebird.

And I like the purr of a V12, but the somewhat unbalanced racket from a V10, like the 8.3lt Viper (or Ram SRT truck) is perfection ..... in my opinion.

Point of order, Sir.

2% of new car sales in a given year is very, very different to 2% of cars on the road...

<grin>

Sure thing. Just a made up, hypothetical example remember.

I'd call that me adding an opinion to the news, but I can see how it could be read as my defining it as good news.

Will have to consider 'micro-spin' in future. What I'm against is 'proper' spin, such as, Tesla hasn't made a profit recently, so therefore Tesla is unprofitable as a company.

Well... If you can argue that they CAN make a profit in the future, DESPITE not making one now, because they have a plan, why can't someone else argue that they CAN'T make a profit in the future because they haven't done yet?

And I don't think our lovely gas guzzlers should be restricted to tracks. I don't think they need to be banned either. Economics will mean you only run one because you really want to. Nobody's going to be passionate enough about Vauxhall Zafiras to use them on the school run, when the 'e-Zafira' is cheaper and kills children less.

When ICE cars on our roads are the exception, rather than the rule, the problem is already solved, and there will be other big polluters to chase - shipping, air freight, industry etc. The motor industry has already cleaned its act up massively (kicking and screaming prehaps) and having 'most' cars on the road being EVs is 'enough' for me.