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  • Richard53
    Richard53 Posts: 3,173 Forumite
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    jeepjunkie wrote: »
    Free charging in Scotland boys...
    I just wonder for how long. No such thing as a free lunch, after all. When the majority have EVs, will employers/service areas still be happy to pay the electricity bills?


    I remember diesel being the fuel preferred by the Govt (clean, green and economical, unlike that dreadful unleaded stuff) and promoted by them with preferential tax rates and the rest. Then we all bought diesels and suddenly diesel became the enemy and the price rose to more than petrol, which I am sure was just a coincidence.
    If someone is nice to you but rude to the waiter, they are not a nice person.
  • AnotherJoe
    AnotherJoe Posts: 19,622 Forumite
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    Tarambor wrote: »
    > I've never experienced such cheap motoring in my life

    You don't save money getting an EV. There is literally no scenario where buying an EV currently saves money over buying an ICE equivalent even if charging costs are £0 due to the premium you pay when you buy and the depreciation when you sell. People are very reluctant to pay much for an EV with a 5 year old battery.

    I do. The depreciation on my previous car was roughly the same as I'm paying on a lease for an EV. Fuel is 20% the price, I've just booked first year service, it's £59. No tax.insurance a bit lower
    I didnt get it to save money though, that's a happy offshoot, it's just a far superior and more fun drive and I don't need to visit petrol stations except rarely to fuel the wife's Aygo which is going next year.
  • gzoom
    gzoom Posts: 530 Forumite
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    Richard53 wrote: »
    I just wonder for how long. No such thing as a free lunch, after all. When the majority have EVs, will employers/service areas still be happy to pay the electricity bills?
    .

    You dont really need to bother with 'free' public charging. I charge our csr at home overnight on cheap E7 electricty. Over the last 6 months my fuel costs have been 2.5p per mile, or £250 for 10,000 miles. Thats for a 2.5 ton 6 seater SUV with a sub 5 second 0-60 time. £250 worth of fuel in an equivalent petrol SUV with similar perfomance would get me barely 500 miles in range.
  • AnotherJoe
    AnotherJoe Posts: 19,622 Forumite
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    gzoom wrote: »
    You dont really need to bother with 'free' public charging. I charge our csr at home overnight on cheap E7 electricty. Over the last 6 months my fuel costs have been 2.5p per mile, or £250 for 10,000 miles. Thats for a 2.5 ton 6 seater SUV with a sub 5 second 0-60 time. £250 worth of fuel in an equivalent petrol SUV with similar perfomance would get me barely 500 miles in range.

    Exactly, it's cheap enough anyway (and even without E7). I think free public charging will eventually go away*, and I hope it does because it's a distraction on multiple levels
    Itt makes some people think the only reason you should buy an EV is "free fuel" and it's also used as an argument against EVs, as we've seen here "when your free ride is over you'll be sorry then"
    It causes perverse behaviour such as those who don't need to charge at that time or place hogging chargers to save what will literally be 50p or similar whilst those who do need a charge cannot get on them,
    It leads to a false expectation that it "should" be free.
    It makes it difficult for anyone looking to set up a commercial service to compete,because it's hard to compete with free, yet long term we need solid profitable commercial services to make EVs a success quicker.

    * it may remain "free" tied to a commercial operation, eg use the cinema or supermarket and get it free as a condition of that use.
  • foxy-stoat
    foxy-stoat Posts: 6,879 Forumite
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    Just curious, how do you know how much home charging actually costs you, do you have a check meter or gauge that logs how many KWH's your drawing?

    Did the sums for a 2015 Zoe vs 2012 Corsa 1.3 diesel and I worked out that a the Zoe (rented batteries) was 1p per mile cheaper than the Corsa before home charging was allowed for. Zoe cost £2000 more to buy than the Corsa I was looking at, but newer with less mileage though. There is a grey area if you rent the batteries as that is a kind of warranty on part of the car that the Corsa didnt have.

    Based my figures on driving 15,000 miles a year.
  • scaredofdebt
    scaredofdebt Posts: 1,640 Forumite
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    You just need to know the battery capacity of the car, typically around 40 Kw and how much you are paying for your electricity, typically around 15p per Kwh. So that's 40 x 15p for a full charge ie £6.

    Obviously you would usually not charge from empty to full so the true figure will be lower for most charges, ie from 20-80% it would be £3.60

    If you're on economy 7 charging overnight is a lot cheaper.
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  • ElefantEd
    ElefantEd Posts: 1,189 Forumite
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    Tarambor wrote: »
    > I've never experienced such cheap motoring in my life

    You don't save money getting an EV. There is literally no scenario where buying an EV currently saves money over buying an ICE equivalent even if charging costs are £0 due to the premium you pay when you buy and the depreciation when you sell. People are very reluctant to pay much for an EV with a 5 year old battery.


    That's odd. I could have sworn that I bought a 6 month old Nissan Leaf 4 years ago for £15k and have since done 110,000 miles in it. Let's not go with the assumption that charging costs are £0 as this is not true, in reality it's about 2p/mile - so fuel costs have been £2200. Total cost of ownership £17,200.



    I don't know exactly what the equivalent petrol/diesel car would have cost, but if we hadn't got the Leaf we would have got something like a 4 year old Micra for about £5k. Even though this isn't really an equivalent car as it's lower spec, let's go with it. 110,000 miles at a conservative 12p/mile is £13200, for a total of £18,200. An ICE car that was more like a Leaf in terms of size (never mind age) would obviously cost more than this.



    This is assuming that all other costs (insurance, VED, mainteneance and repairs) are the same, which also isn't true - more for the ICE in all cases.


    We have most certainly saved money by using an electric car, and will continue to do so. A second hand Leaf of the age/ mileage of our car is still worth something (maybe £5k?)- if only for reclaiming the battery components, whereas an 8-9 year old Micra is beginning to edge into 'not really worth very much' territory.


    Really it's a fairly simple calculation. EVs are at least 10p/mile cheaper. So if the total number of miles done x 10p is more than the difference between an EV and an ICE, you've saved money.
  • scaredofdebt
    scaredofdebt Posts: 1,640 Forumite
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    Thanks for the comments so far, I have a test-drive of the Nissan Leaf booked for Saturday and also considering the Hyundai Ioniq. The Kona is not available for 10 months or so I am told, it's probably a bit cramped in the rear in any case, we've got teenage kids who are getting taller, awkward beggars!
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  • AnotherJoe
    AnotherJoe Posts: 19,622 Forumite
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    Very similar to the Kona buta foot longer with more space in the back will be the Kia Niro. Probably available next summer onwards. Also same for the next Kia Soul whose main drawback apart from the idiosyncratic looks is a small boot.
  • almillar
    almillar Posts: 8,621 Forumite
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    You don't save money getting an EV. There is literally no scenario where buying an EV currently saves money over buying an ICE equivalent even if charging costs are £0 due to the premium you pay when you buy and the depreciation when you sell. People are very reluctant to pay much for an EV with a 5 year old battery.

    I bought a Renault Zoe in 2015 and it cost £4,000 all in to drive 15,000 in 2 years. Excluding insurance,but including servicing, tax, fuel. Beat that. No, I can't repeat the deal, but there literally is (was!) a scenario.
    Also, those 5 year old batteries are nowhere near as degraded as people had feared, so many people are more than happy to buy them.
    Bear in mind that quoted range seems to be about 30% more than what is actually achievable.

    The range thing is getting better, the new tests are more realistic. Look at the kWh of a car's battery, allow for 3 miles per kWh, and you'll end up with a range that can be relied upon, and can very often be beaten.
    A used Zoe or Leaf are probably your only options at present. Though neither will do 200 miles, 120 miles will be ok.

    120 miles in a 22kWh or 24 kWh Leaf is over-promising!
    Free charging in Scotland boys...

    (And NI)
    I remember diesel being the fuel preferred by the Govt (clean, green and economical, unlike that dreadful unleaded stuff) and promoted by them with preferential tax rates and the rest. Then we all bought diesels and suddenly diesel became the enemy and the price rose to more than petrol, which I am sure was just a coincidence.

    You missed out some science in there, telling us that diesel was great, then telling us it's terrible. That won't happen with electricity. Also, arguing about FREE electric running out, whilst using fossil fuels. I've got news for you!
    Just curious, how do you know how much home charging actually costs you, do you have a check meter or gauge that logs how many KWH's your drawing?

    Compared to the cost of pumping fuel into a car it's cheap. But compared to your electric bill, it's big! You'll notice! If you want to measure it, you can buy a smart charger, but without that, just know the size of your car's battery, and the cost per unit you pay for electricity. It's per kWh, and your car's battery is measured the same way. So for a 22kWh Zoe, at 15p per kWh, if I had to push it onto the driveway completely empty, would cost 15x22 = £3.30. Now, chargers aren't 100% efficient, so it would be a bit more than that, but that's a decent figure. If you roll in with half a battery, that would be £1.65.
    Zoe might look bad second hand with the battery rental to consider, depending on your mileage.
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