Ground Source Heat Pump - anyone got one?

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pinklady21
pinklady21 Posts: 870 Forumite
in LPG, heating oil, solid & other fuels
Hello
Hope this is the right board for this question: I have cross posted it on the various "green" boards, before I found this one!

I am currently refurbishing a victorian farmhouse and 3 cottages.
We intend to let out the cottages, and live in the main farmhouse.

No current "proper" heating systems in any of them, only open fires or plug in heaters.
Going to be insulating as well as we can as part of refurb - underfloors, lofts and internal walls.

Question is - what is best system for heating and hot water in all of the properties either individually or a "district" type system for all of them?

Would like to go for a renewable system if possible and feasible given the limitations of the structure and getting it as energy efficient as we can.
Thinking Ground Source, as we have a lot of land around that is fairly wet. Install an UFH system at same time.

Main issue is expense of installing it, and whether it is worth it by offsetting cost with either the domestic or non domestic RHI.

Looks like with domestic, the RHI pays a higher rate per unit, it is not metered and lasts for 7 years.
Non-domestic will pay a lower rate per unit, has to be metered and will last for 20 years.

Questions:
1. Anyone with a GSHP - what are pros and cons?
2. What questions should we ask of any installer?
3. RHI for multiple properties - all the cottages are self contained, likely to be eligible for non-domestic RHI scheme - assuming we get a system big enough for heating and supply of hot water to all of them. Are tenants / holiday letters likely to have issues with a GSHP system?
4. RHI - are we better going for domestic RHI for each property and is it possible to apply for RHI on more than one domestic property?
5. If we also decide to install a boiler stove in one room in each of the houses to supplement heating and hot water, is this going to foul up any RHI application?
6. Also thinking about a Solar Thermal system to raise water temperatures and Solar PV to generate electricity which will also power the GSH pump. Any possible snags with that?

Thanks all!
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  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413 Forumite
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    You are not saying what area heating you are talking about over the properties.
    Without that it is impossible to say, as it would also need the pipe runs to each, to be able to get a rough sizing.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
  • pinklady21
    pinklady21 Posts: 870 Forumite
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    Thanks for the prompt response.

    The properties are 4 houses in 2 buildings.
    Main farmhouse is 2 storey with attached smaller 1 storey cottage.
    Overall footprint of the building (ie both dwellings): 120m2
    Actual area of both storeys is 172m2

    Other building contains 2 x 1 and half storey cottages with an attached barn also 1 and half storey which is likely to be converted to living accommodation, so I have included the area here:
    Overall footprint: 91m2
    Actual area over both floors is 182m2

    Does this help?
    Let me know what other info you might need. The land available in the adjacent field for the pipe run is over 5 acres.
    Thank you!
  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413 Forumite
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    Hi.
    Ground area is fine.
    172m2 is about a 14kw heat pump. The same could be for the other building.
    Do you want them to be running as seperate units, or as central?
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
  • pinklady21
    pinklady21 Posts: 870 Forumite
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    lovesgshp wrote: »
    Hi.
    Ground area is fine.
    172m2 is about a 14kw heat pump. The same could be for the other building.
    Do you want them to be running as seperate units, or as central?

    Thanks again for the prompt reply.
    Whether to go for one central system or 2 or even more is a question we are asking. Not sure of the answer yet.
    What are the pros and cons? Presumably cost is a prime consideration as the more systems we have the more expensive it will be?

    Would I be correct to think we would only need a single underground pipe run for all of them, it would just need to be made longer, depending on the total heat load needed?

    Would there be more flexibility in terms of the heating provided in each property if they were on separate systems? (or could this be taken care of with separate temp controls for each cottage?)

    Also - at what point would we need to upgrade to a three phase electricity supply?

    Let me know what else I am missing, as I am very much learning as I go with this!
    TY
  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413 Forumite
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    A lot depends on the usage of each system relating to the occupancy of the properties. It is probably easier to get some better ideas if I give you my direct email via PM.
    I know nothing about the RHI in the UK, so I cannot give you any advice on that.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413 Forumite
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    Just basically looking at what your ideas are, then probably 3 phase supply.
    Installed 2x11kw units in Tuscany with a 500ltr DHW tank. Ground loops were 2x160mtrs each of 2 in and 2 out.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413 Forumite
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    pinklady21 wrote: »
    Hello
    Hope this is the right board for this question: I have cross posted it on the various "green" boards, before I found this one!

    I am currently refurbishing a victorian farmhouse and 3 cottages.
    We intend to let out the cottages, and live in the main farmhouse.

    No current "proper" heating systems in any of them, only open fires or plug in heaters.
    Going to be insulating as well as we can as part of refurb - underfloors, lofts and internal walls.

    Question is - what is best system for heating and hot water in all of the properties either individually or a "district" type system for all of them?
    Depends on how long they will be used for each year.


    Would like to go for a renewable system if possible and feasible given the limitations of the structure and getting it as energy efficient as we can.
    Thinking Ground Source, as we have a lot of land around that is fairly wet. Install an UFH system at same time.
    Best idea is UHF.


    Main issue is expense of installing it, and whether it is worth it by offsetting cost with either the domestic or non domestic RHI.
    Is expensive to install, but very low maintenance.


    Looks like with domestic, the RHI pays a higher rate per unit, it is not metered and lasts for 7 years.
    Non-domestic will pay a lower rate per unit, has to be metered and will last for 20 years.

    Questions:
    1. Anyone with a GSHP - what are pros and cons?
    Pros:
    Virtually set and forget.
    Low maintenance, which most of the time you can do yourself.


    Cons:
    High initial costs.
    Finding knowledgeable installers.
    Running times need to be constant, as it can take up to 24 hrs to increase by 1C



    2. What questions should we ask of any installer?
    How many years have they been installing these systems and can you get some referrals from other clients. Stay well clear of cheap unknown pumps.
    Try not to use slinky lines to cut costs.

    3. RHI for multiple properties - all the cottages are self contained, likely to be eligible for non-domestic RHI scheme - assuming we get a system big enough for heating and supply of hot water to all of them. Are tenants / holiday letters likely to have issues with a GSHP system?
    Once the system is working, there are no reasons guests should alter the settings, so the unit should be in a secure place.

    4. RHI - are we better going for domestic RHI for each property and is it possible to apply for RHI on more than one domestic property?
    Sorry, no idea.

    5. If we also decide to install a boiler stove in one room in each of the houses to supplement heating and hot water, is this going to foul up any RHI application?
    As above.

    6. Also thinking about a Solar Thermal system to raise water temperatures and Solar PV to generate electricity which will also power the GSH pump. Any possible snags with that?
    Solar PV is OK, would not suggest thermal, as it would not make a great deal of difference.


    Thanks all!
    Have listed a few answers to your questions, but you have my email if you require more details for specifics.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,037 Forumite
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    As you will have gathered, lovesgshp is the real expert and has been extremely helpful to many posters with issues.

    1. Anyone with a GSHP - what are pros and cons?

    3. RHI for multiple properties - all the cottages are self contained, likely to be eligible for non-domestic RHI scheme - assuming we get a system big enough for heating and supply of hot water to all of them. Are tenants / holiday letters likely to have issues with a GSHP system?


    I would question the concept of a heat pump(GSHP or ASHP) for holiday cottages. Given the low temperatures at which a heat pump operates, to provide adequate heating it really needs to run continuously; as lovesgshp
    states 'Running times need to be constant, as it can take up to 24 hrs to increase by 1C'. Is that really suitable for tenants/holiday lets?


    Although they don't qualify for RHI have you given any thought to Air to Air heat pumps? These cost a fraction of the price of a GSHP and also provide air conditioning in summer.
  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413 Forumite
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    Cardew has given a alternative for 2 of the cottages, which could be very relevant as they are not attached to the main house.
    Maybe, just a feed from a large DHW tank to cover the shower, kitchen use etc.
    That way it would only need the main heating for the farmhouse and attached cottage, which would reduce install costs. What is the distance apart of the properties?
    With a 14Kw pump in the main house you would be looking at approx 140mtrsx2 of excavations @ 1.3-1.5 mtrs depth.

    Obviously, the more ideas the better and hopefully cheaper it gets!!!
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413 Forumite
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    Just another suggestion, related to the post by Cardew for the other cottages. This would alleviate having to install DHW supply from the main house, meaning you could reduce the DHW tank to maybe 300 ltrs.


    http://www.ariston.com/uk/air_source_heat_pump_cylinder/nuos
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
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