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HELP! County Court letter received, VCS - deadline is 28/7

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  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,730 Forumite
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    You need to remove loads, anything that talks about letters received by debt collectors is just irrelevant, so for a start I'd remove:

    #5

    and #18 through to #27 inclusive

    #50 because it's not a 'persuasive case' (not an appeal case and no transcript)

    #54 because the UTCCRS were replaced in 2015 and dismissed in the ParkingEye v Beavis case, the same year, so it's pointless talking abut them.

    #60, because there is nothing to object about that paragraph and isn't abuse of the POFA (they are allowed to get the keeper's details under a different law)

    #61 through to #63 inclusive, because they cannot possibly have gone back to the DVLA in 2019.

    #93 because it adds nothing to the case, and is repetition/waffle only!


    Sorry but I stopped reading after that, so look for more waffle and weed it out!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • D335071
    D335071 Posts: 33 Forumite
    edited 20 October 2019 at 12:59AM
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    You need to remove loads, anything that talks about letters received by debt collectors is just irrelevant, so for a start I'd remove:

    #5

    and #18 through to #27 inclusive

    #50 because it's not a 'persuasive case' (not an appeal case and no transcript)

    #54 because the UTCCRS were replaced in 2015 and dismissed in the ParkingEye v Beavis case, the same year, so it's pointless talking abut them.

    #60, because there is nothing to object about that paragraph and isn't abuse of the POFA (they are allowed to get the keeper's details under a different law)

    #61 through to #63 inclusive, because they cannot possibly have gone back to the DVLA in 2019.

    #93 because it adds nothing to the case, and is repetition/waffle only!


    Sorry but I stopped reading after that, so look for more waffle and weed it out!


    OK - I understand. I don't really understand the skelton argument part as I have read lots and I think I am trying to cover to many bases. It is all very confusing what I need to say and what i don't. I have cut the waffle but i am sure there is more that I could. Down quite a bit now.

    Would you mind a second look? I don't want to annoy the judge. Should I bullet point it more? What level of detail is needed? I think I can condense the signage part but don't want to lose the point being made.

    Thank you. :(
  • D335071
    D335071 Posts: 33 Forumite
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    KeithP wrote: »
    No, sorry, far too long for me to concentrate on.

    Not too sure a Judge would look forward to that either.

    Do you understand the word 'skeleton' in the phrase 'skeleton argument'? Far too much flesh on the bones there.

    Thanks Keith. No - it doesn't seem that I do! I have trimmed down loads again with the advice so far which is helpful thank you.
  • Le_Kirk
    Le_Kirk Posts: 22,315 Forumite
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    I told you in post # 35 that it was too long and this has been borne out by KeithP and Coupon-mad. A witness statement (WS) should be in support of your defence as already filed. If your defence has one of the points that, since you were not the driver at the time and the claimant has failed POFA and cannot hold you liable, that should be the first and main point of your WS and your evidence should back that up. You need your main points in the WS to be at the beginning. Your strongest points are no keeper liability, no landowner contract and (if I am reading it all correctly) it's not even a car park! Maybe you could summarise your main points at the beginning of the WS under the heading SUMMARY and the rest of it could be in another section marked DETAIL (or similar heading).

    Your Skeleton argument is longer than your witness statement (well nearly) and it would be a nightmare for you to negotiate in court. It should be a series of bullet points that show you a path through the defence and WS and help you to guide the judge through your main points.
  • D335071
    D335071 Posts: 33 Forumite
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    Skeleton and WS (edited right down) posted as an edit. I have to submit tomorrow so this is my last chance but I think the penny dropped that this supports my already submitted defence statement rather than having to repeat it. I think I have that right.

    Do I send copies of everything to the Claimant or just the evidence I am relying on? (so used rather than anything unused?) or do I send a copy of everything?

    Thank you
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,730 Forumite
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    You send everything to the Claimant - but by email if they don't disallow it.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • D335071
    D335071 Posts: 33 Forumite
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    You send everything to the Claimant - but by email if they don't disallow it.

    Thanks. I will scan everything and email it to them then.

    `i have updated the WS and SA in the easier posts. I hope it is now in a better form. Would you take a look if you have time. Thank you.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,730 Forumite
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    A WS without mentioning or attaching the Caernarfon VCS judgment is like bread without butter. Search the forum.
    11. It would appear from Court records reported in the public domain that this Claimant did not comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. I have examined the Parking Charge Notice and Notice to Keeper I was sent in this matter and I believe that they also do not comply with the POFA 2012.
    You need to say why and attach Schedule 4 as an exhibit, with the relevant parts highlighted.

    Was it a red card saying 'this is not a parking charge'? Then don't say it was one! Or, was it a white PCN on the windscreen, but the NTK failed to use 8(2)f wording about keeper liability?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • nosferatu1001
    nosferatu1001 Posts: 12,961 Forumite
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    I respectfully disagree on emailing the C the WS.
    Unless they have explicitly allowed it, you are prohibited from serving via email.
  • D335071
    D335071 Posts: 33 Forumite
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    OK - thanks for the help. I wasn't aware of the Caernarfon one but will take a copy with me.

    I have posted a bundle to the Claimant and I have put a full file with index, separators and schedule etc in so it is as easy and organised as I can make it. I handed it in to the staff in person and they time stamped it. I will take a spare bundle with me on the day as well.

    I have also had a letter form VCS offering to settle for £125 (which work out that we are now back to the original costs plus court costs!) I have of course, not taken that offer.

    So now it is getting ready for they in Court, and boning up on the case law I guess? Any other advice for a complete novice at County Court proceedings gratefully received. Is it like Magistrates / Crown or completely different?

    If there are any other links, hints or tips then thank you in advance. I am very grateful and no matter what happens, at least I tried.
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