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Minster Baywatch / Gladstones Unpaid Charge

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  • Vjr7411
    Vjr7411 Posts: 30 Forumite
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    Hi All,

    I've been trawling the forum and reading the Noobs guide but I don't seem to be getting anywhere, my defence at the moment just seems a little scatty with no structure just copying and pasting what seems relevant from other threads and defences I've seen on here.

    Any advice?

    Is that how a defence initially starts to take shape?
  • beamerguy
    beamerguy Posts: 17,587 Forumite
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    Vjr7411 wrote: »
    Hi All,

    I've been trawling the forum and reading the Noobs guide but I don't seem to be getting anywhere, my defence at the moment just seems a little scatty with no structure just copying and pasting what seems relevant from other threads and defences I've seen on here.

    Any advice?

    Is that how a defence initially starts to take shape?

    You make your own defence to your circumstances with help
    from what you read on here

    As it's the incompetent Gladstones again, read up on them, plenty to give you help
    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/search?q=gladstones
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,638 Forumite
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    edited 9 January 2019 at 10:16PM
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    Vjr7411 wrote: »
    Hi All,

    I've been trawling the forum and reading the Noobs guide but I don't seem to be getting anywhere, my defence at the moment just seems a little scatty with no structure just copying and pasting what seems relevant from other threads and defences I've seen on here.

    Any advice?

    Is that how a defence initially starts to take shape?
    No.

    Have you not seen the concise Defence examples in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread?

    Bargepole posted another good example only yesterday:

    Post your draft Defence when you are ready.

    I know there have been distractions, but it is still disappointing to see that we have seen nothing from you in over three weeks.

    Only five days left to file your Defence.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,669 Forumite
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    How come people don't just copy the bargepole defences in the NEWBIES thread without being told to do that on a thread? It is so easy to adapt them, so it amazes me when people say they are writing their own/have no idea, despite seeing the NEWBIES thread, and making it so much harder that it need be.

    How much clearer can I make it in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread than saying 'here's a concise defence to copy & adapt'?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • Vjr7411
    Vjr7411 Posts: 30 Forumite
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    KeithP wrote: »
    No.

    Have you not seen the concise Defence examples in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread?

    Bargepole posted another good example only yesterday:

    Post your draft Defence when you are ready.

    I know there have been distractions, but it is still disappointing to see that we have seen nothing from you in over three weeks.

    Only five days left to file your Defence.


    I think I have done a little too much reading and thinking too deep about what is actually needed.
  • Vjr7411
    Vjr7411 Posts: 30 Forumite
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    How come people don't just copy the bargepole defences in the NEWBIES thread without being told to do that on a thread? It is so easy to adapt them, so it amazes me when people say they are writing their own/have no idea, despite seeing the NEWBIES thread, and making it so much harder that it need be.

    How much clearer can I make it in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread than saying 'here's a concise defence to copy & adapt'?

    Its quite a daunting task if you have never had to do anything like this before, its easy to read too much into it and make it more than a chore than it has to be. I think, I will know more depending on the response I get when I submit my defence on here.
  • Vjr7411
    Vjr7411 Posts: 30 Forumite
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    Here is my first attempt at my defence.

    IN THE COUNTY COURT BUSINESS CENTRE

    CLAIM No:


    BETWEEN:



    -and-
    (Defendant)



    DEFENCE


    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed or at all.

    2. The Defendant is the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. The Claim relates to an alleged debt in damages arising from a driver's alleged breach of contract, when parking at XXXXX car park on XX/XX/XX.

    3.The Particulars of Claim do not specify the legal basis upon which the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    4. Further and in the alternative, it is denied that the Claimant's signage sets out the terms in a sufficiently clear manner which would be capable of binding any reasonable person reading them.

    5. The terms on the Claimant's signage are also displayed in a font which is too small to be read from a passing vehicle, and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read the small font would be unable to do so easily. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.

    6. The Claimant’s signage is unlit and therefore illegible in poor natural light in any event.


    ###NO LBC###
    7. Due to the sparse details on the 'PCN' (taken to be a scam piece of junk mail, since it did not come from any Authority or the Police and arrived weeks later) and the equally lacking and embarrassing Particulars of Claim (POC) and the complete lack of any Letter before Claim, this Claimant afforded the Defendant no opportunity to take stock, obtain data, copy letters, and images of the contract on signage. There has been no chance to even understand the allegation, let alone discuss or dispute it prior to court action, as should have been the case under the October 2017 pre-action protocol for debt claims.

    8. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient prorpietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    9. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. The claim includes an additional £60, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.

    Name
    Signature
    Date
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,669 Forumite
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    Great as a start, nearly there in fact.

    The only thought I had was that I can't tell what the facts are/what your defence actually is. You need a numbered point early on that says:

    The facts are...

    ...and then say what sort of car park it is;

    what the alleged contravention is;

    Respond specifically, to what the POC say in the Claim form/why you dispute the claim

    e.g.
    it is admitted that the Defendant was the Registered keeper of the vehicle

    it is denied that any contract was agreed or offered in prominent large lettering

    it is denied (or admitted, of you are more comfortable and it's true?) that the D was the driver

    and it is averred that the signage was so sparse as to be unremarkable and unseen to an average driver, and no terms could be read from the parking place used. The driver believed parking was free (or whatever)...
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
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  • Vjr7411
    Vjr7411 Posts: 30 Forumite
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    Thanks Coupon, I will get on with it now.
  • Vjr7411
    Vjr7411 Posts: 30 Forumite
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    IN THE COUNTY COURT BUSINESS CENTRE

    CLAIM No:


    BETWEEN:



    -and-
    (Defendant)



    DEFENCE

    The facts are whilst using the car park situated at XXXX we incured a "Parking Charge", the alleged offence was "Vehicle was not authorised to use the car park". It is denied that any contract was agreed or offered in prominent large lettering which resulted in the Defendant believing the Car PArk was Free to use.

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed or at all.

    2. The Defendant is the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. The Claim relates to an alleged debt in damages arising from a driver's alleged breach of contract, when parking at XXXXX car park on XX/XX/XX.

    3.The Particulars of Claim do not specify the legal basis upon which the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    4. Further and in the alternative, it is denied that the Claimant's signage sets out the terms in a sufficiently clear manner which would be capable of binding any reasonable person reading them.

    5. The terms on the Claimant's signage are also displayed in a font which is too small to be read from a passing vehicle, and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read the small font would be unable to do so easily. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.

    6. The Claimant’s signage is unlit and therefore illegible in poor natural light in any event.


    ###NO LBC###
    7. Due to the sparse details on the 'PCN' (taken to be a scam piece of junk mail, since it did not come from any Authority or the Police and arrived weeks later) and the equally lacking and embarrassing Particulars of Claim (POC) and the complete lack of any Letter before Claim, this Claimant afforded the Defendant no opportunity to take stock, obtain data, copy letters, and images of the contract on signage. There has been no chance to even understand the allegation, let alone discuss or dispute it prior to court action, as should have been the case under the October 2017 pre-action protocol for debt claims.

    8. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient prorpietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    9. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. The claim includes an additional £60, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.

    Name
    Signature
    Date
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